Michelle:
Welcome to Ritual Sisters, the podcast where your hosts and fellow travelers, Michelle and Kelly, explore the ways that ritual can help you feel better through the ups and downs of life. So let's take a deep breath and start this journey together.

Kelly:
We are so grateful to be back with you all today and we are so so jazzed to have Julia Elizabeth here with us. I want to share a little bit about her and also our topic for today. Julia Elizabeth is a licensed therapist, published author, and an embodiment and intimacy coach.

We're here to hear Julie's journey from moving away from a shame-based religious upbringing to reclaiming sexuality as a spiritual practice and rituals that are part of this practice. So welcome, Julie.

Julie:
Thank you so much for having me. I am honored and thrilled to be here.

Michelle:
We always start with just kind of, we want to hear a little bit about yourself. Maybe you can explain a little bit more about what an embodiment and intimacy coach does and then kind of what season of life you're in right now.

Julie:
Yeah, so great topic, great question. And I really think it's so open to definition, but for my definition of embodiment is helping people really connect with themselves on an internal level. So I always think of like breath movement and sound being kind of the ingredients of expression. And so it's a very inward journey. And I love to facilitate experiences that help people connect inward in that way.

So it's often through movement or vocal activation or breath and often the combination of those things so that we can really get in touch with the full range of our emotions and move those through our body in a variety of ways. So that's my definition of embodiment is really just mind-body connection and expression. And then intimacy is a derivative of that or an extension of that, right?

It's connecting in with ourselves. So my book is Sacred Sexuality Within and Between because it's like a Venn diagram where there very much is an internal intimacy and then intimacy that we create with the world around us, including partner or whatever. So long way into definition, but that's my definition. Love. That was so helpful. And my season of life right now.

It's so interesting. I want to say that I'm in a cocoon phase, but only because I've gotten so many beautiful opportunities to be with myself in this stage of life. I live alone, although I have a puppy, so I hardly consider that alone, is pretty high energy and like needs a lot from me, but I get a lot of time with myself.

And so that is a really beautiful opportunity to kind of connect in with that within and intimacy. I want to say that that's beautiful all the time, but sometimes it's challenging as well, you know, when you meet moments of loneliness or isolation and whatnot. So the other half of that, I would say is very much community oriented, seeking community, nurturing the community that I've built both in proximity because of a recent move, just moved from Arizona to Idaho last year. And so it's very much been kind of establishing roots and getting settled here, finding places where I can serve and share my gifts, but then just cultivating relationships with community. So it really is just so much both the cocoon with myself and cultivating community is just where I'm at right now.

Kelly:
That is so beautiful, Julie. And I love the balance of those things. I just have the image of a cocoon and how nourishing that is to have that time with yourself.

Michelle:
Did you have any community in Idaho before you moved out?

Julie:
I had one friend who lived here. I live in Lewiston, Idaho, and I didn't even know it existed, had no idea. It was not on my radar, not on my map. I had one girlfriend who lived here and she's been talking about it for a couple of years and just loved it. So I came to a decision point that I wasn't meant to stay in Arizona for long term. And I knew that I've known that for some time and I've always loved the PNW.

So I chose not to renew my lease. I had like three months and I was like, I'm not renewing my lease. I'm moving. I don't know where. And so I said, okay, I'm going just give it to, you know, give it to the Universe, give it to God. What opportunities are going to come into alignment? And it was a synchronicity in timing. I got an invitation to come visit and there was an opening for a place to live, which is actually really hard to come by here, but it's like beautiful and perfect. So from there, it was like, if you're going to know somebody, it was like potent. It was a good connection to have. She has introduced me to so many people here, including a yoga studio owner who just had this vision that was really solo-aligned for me. I get to show up and offer classes and share my gifts there. But more than that, she wanted it be a community center, like a spiritual wellness hub and center where it's more than just yoga, it's more than just a practice. It's a place for community. I was like, I love you. Let's be best friends. Pretty soon after moving here, I felt like I got to really make meaningful connections because of that.

Kelly:
That's really beautiful that you really have put the trust in the Universe and that's amazing that you found that community.

Julie:
Yeah, it was nothing short of magical. I was so terrified and trying to figure out the logic of where are the options and where could I move and am I going to be in Texas or California or Idaho or Washington? I had no idea. So was a big trust fall. Yeah, that's a whole story in and of itself because it was just really magical, just so divinely supported and inspired that I just felt completely guided there and completely sure.

Like I was just so, so clear. It’s been a journey, but a gift this transition. And I'm grateful to be where I am now in this new chapter.

Michelle:
Many congratulations, Julie. That's huge. When we, yeah, when we land somewhere new. We also love to ask our guests, what is your relationship like to ritual and ceremony?

Julie:
Okay. I have two answers for that. I'm a bit of a both bitch. Hope it's okay to swear.

Kelly:
We welcome it.

Julie:
So my first response to that is a true one. And that is that it feels like a lovership, right? It feels like a devotional practice, feels like something that is the most important thing in life. I want life to be a ceremony. I want life to be a constant string of rituals that create meaning and add substance and richness to my life.

And I have ADHD and so it's also very much like a lovership in being a bit tense and crunchy and strange sometimes and like consistency often feels like my greatest enemy. And so it's kind of this constant recommitments and coming back and coming back and coming back to the rituals that I most like, but struggle to practice with consistency.

Michelle:
I think it is so relatable for all of us and that's the beauty of ritual is that it is always there for you. It's not like something that you have to stick to strictly and always come back to it. Did you have a second part of it?

Julie:
That was the part. So it's like lovership in a way that's like, it's so beautiful, so devotional to come back to it. But the conflict piece of it, right? It's like the love-hate relationship where I'm like, I just struggle with the consistency and very much want it to feel just more fluid and flowy in my life on a regular basis. That was just the other piece of it. It's like, it's not always easy. And sometimes it is a good mirror for me, it reflects things back to me of where my growth edges are and things like that.

Kelly:
I'm so glad you shared that, Julie, because I feel like listeners will really connect with that. There's almost a pressure we can put on ourselves when we think about living intentionally with ritual and ceremony. So yeah, thank you for sharing that.

Julie:
I think that's the piece I'm speaking to. It's like, I love it so much. And then sometimes I'm like, oh my gosh, I need to just veg out in front of the TV for like a do nothing day and no pressure, don't take it so seriously. Just stop trying to be so intentional all of the time. It's a little bit of both.

Michelle:
100%. And I think like any relationship in our life, like you're speaking to that, that we, there will be those ebbs and flows and that there's no such thing as the perfect relationship.

Julie, so we know that you grew up Mormon. Can you tell us a little bit about what it was like growing up Mormon and then how you came to know that religion wasn't really working for you anymore?

Julie:
Yeah, absolutely. I was born and raised in it and with that kind of religious context, it's so immersive in the sense that everyone that you know is kind of in that group, right? And what I noticed was there's a bit of a culture of us versus them. It just feels so immersive where it's like kind of all you know and the people that aren't a member of the church are, this might be a controversial thing to say, but are kind of visionary projects, right? It's like, we just wish that they had the truth. We wish that they had the gospel and, you know, we'll invite them and we'll fellowship them. And that's just kind of how the culture is. There's a view of people who aren't a member as maybe not having the same things that you have and just like this desire to share it with them. But because of that, it felt very much like...

this need to assimilate, this need to really follow it for inclusivity and belonging and whatnot. So being raised in that religion was so immersive, so deeply ingrained with identity. And it's not just a church on Sundays kind of culture. It's throughout the whole week and it's a three hour church on Sundays plus whatever additional activities. There's weeknight activities throughout the week and there's callings where you are of service and whatnot. So it's very much a lifestyle and a philosophy of just kind of the meaning of life. It's not just here is where you come to try and cultivate a relationship with God. It's very prescriptive in the sense of here's how you live a life that will align you with God and eternal salvation. So like access to heaven type of thing. And as part of that, I had a pretty chaotic like environment growing up as a kid, as far as just home life, there's a pretty high conflict divorce. And so I'd go back and forth between the households. There's a lot of conflict between the households and it just created a feeling of chaos and stress and kind of instability for me emotionally. And so I think that the way that I kind of tried to find stability was really closely following what I could. So that was school and church.

I knew, if I could get perfect grades and show up and like that's something I had control over and then also church it's like well I'm being taught that this is truth. This isn't a belief, it's not being taught to me as a belief, it's being taught to me as truth that this is the one and true church and you know there's a whole story and reasons why but it's taught to you as like here's why we know, right? When people go up and they bear their testimony it's like I know this church is true. And so when you're really, really young and impressionable, it's like, that's what you're receiving. And I'm sorry, was like, okay, questioning this is not an option. Questioning this means you have to address something within you. Like it's perfect. If there's something that doesn't fit, like that's a you problem, you know? And so, that's just kind of the context where I, not only was it being taught to me in that way, and it was so immersive, so tied to belonging and social acceptance and survival in that way, but also just the chaos of my childhood that I felt it was so important for me to follow whatever structure that I had to get to stability.

Kind of fast forward to how did I discover that it wasn't for me? I felt an internal conflict for the whole thing. Like, all growing up into my twenties, I felt this inner divide of what I was supposed to be and how I was supposed to be and how I was supposed to think and feel and whatnot, that that's what God expected of me. And then some of these things of, here's what I'm feeling and experiencing and here's how I am as an imperfect human, you know, and that was kind of taught to me as being sinful. That's your sinful nature is like your humanity is sinful.

And that creates a lot of shame. That creates an incredible amount of shame on the inside of who I am as just a natural being is wrong and I need to be saved from that. I need to be forgiven for that because it's just inherently wrong. And so I felt a lot of pressure and I felt a lot of shame. And in particular, as an adolescent, when I was developing as a sexual being, that's something that is pretty heavily taught, pretty heavily emphasized as far as purity culture and modesty of how you dress and how you behave and really making sure that is saved for marriage. It's abstinence only type of ideology and it's also deeply ingrained with worth. So purity culture is like your sense of worthiness or lovability or desirability is tied to your purity or adherence to abstinence. And so as an adolescent, when I started, you know, expressing or exploring connection with my sexuality and having experiences with boyfriend or whatever, I just felt this crazy amount of shame and crazy amount of pressure. There's something wrong with me because I'm not controlling this. I'm not containing this. And I just feel wrong for that. And it feels just so outside of my control. Not that I couldn't control my choice in behavior, but that I couldn't feel the way that God wanted me to feel about it.

And so it's such a significant theme and they're so inextricably tied together when I think about my upbringing, because it just was all tied together. And so I felt so horrible about those choices making that any other aspect of my life where I felt like I was suffering, it felt like it was because I wasn't good enough and I wasn't following it well enough and it wasn't perfect enough. And so that's why things were challenging for me or not whatever it was. Like I was stressed or anxious or whatever, overwhelmed, because I wasn't good enough. And so I ended up getting married at a weeks before I turned 21, really, really young. And I got married to someone who was a returned missionary and he was from a good family and was devoted to the church and just the checklist that you're taught to want in a partner. Like here are the priorities of what you're supposed to want. And from like five years old and even earlier than that, it's like taught to you that that's the path. They call it the plan of happiness or the plan of salvation.

Kelly:
That’s young Julie.

Julie:
Oh, very, very young. That is so young. I mean, and it's conditioning even in your home, like there's like pictures of temples. It's such an integral part of the teachings that from a very young age, you're taught to want a temple marriage.

And the temple marriage is like the pinnacle of success. It's a requirement actually to get into heaven. Not just heaven, but there's tiers of heaven. There's degrees of heaven. So the highest degree of glory in heaven is called the celestial kingdom. In that highest degree of heaven, you have to be married in the temple and sealed in the temple and be worthy. That word worthiness is so deeply ingrained in language, so deep in your brain. There's worthiness interviews where you go to a bishop or a priest, the leader in the congregation, and you are asked questions about your adherence to the law of chastity and about your testimony and all these things. Like to get a recommend or an ID card that says, I'm worthy to enter the temple, I'm worthy to participate to a certain degree. And there's ages and rites of passage and things like that.

Like there's only certain degrees you can participate as an adolescent. And then once you're an adult or getting married, you are able to participate in other rituals in the temple. And you don't know what they are because they're sacred. And so you just know that they're very important and they're important to your eternal salvation as an individual. That is kind of like a requirement, a requirement for entry. And so the pressure on being pure, the pressure on being marriage material in that context is so tied to God's love for you, God's acceptance of you and your eternal salvation. So no pressure.

Kelly:
That word pressure, Julie, keeps coming up for me. And thank you for going into detail on this because it's like we hear bits and pieces, but of course, when you didn't grow up in this religion. Yeah, I mean, my goodness, that is so much pressure.

Michelle:
Yeah, I think about all the little synapses that are forming in your brain of when this happens and that's what you're learning in these really important developmental stages of your life.

Julie:
Yeah, absolutely. And you know, for myself, I had sex at 16 and that was so not okay in that culture, right? It's so not okay. And it's taught to you. I remember being in a seminary class at high school. It's like a church class that's off campus. But I remember being in a class that was teaching about that. Sexual sin is akin to murder in severity. It can be forgiven because anything can be forgiven if you repent and don't do it again, right? But it's a severe type of sin. And so just adding to the layer of pressure, right? It's not the same as like, I told a lie or I didn't obey my mother and father or I was jealous or coveted or I hit my brother or sister.

There's different things that are defined as sin, but that one is the no-go zone. I don't think this is unique to Mormonism when we think about abstinence-only education, that oftentimes it's paired with these really harmful metaphors. Really harmful metaphors about how irrevocable it is. You can't get it back once you've crossed that threshold you can't go backwards. So you can be forgiven. And I mean, there are object lessons in even church where they're like, see, you can't, once there's dirt in the sugar, you can't get the dirt out again. Or once you've chewed up the piece of gum, you can never make it perfect again. You can't ever take it back once you've torn the paper, you can't ever make it whole again. And they tried to say the only way to that is Christ. The only way to that is being forgiven or to repentance and whatnot.

But even then, culturally, are hoops you have to jump through, things that you have to kind of, it's just so shame inducing. You have to go and confess to the bishop and share these things and then you're given sort of this path of here's what you have to do to be forgiven and again, don't do it again. You know, don't do it again. So I felt crazy amount of shame. Felt not only like, right after it happened or when it would happen again or about myself that I was this way, but also even in meeting my husband, you know, because he had saved himself, you know, and I hadn't. And just feeling unworthy of love in that way. And even though I had repented, even though I was kind of doing the things that I was supposed to do, just the shame was still there. And yeah, it just makes me emotional even now, you know, just naming it and talking about that, I once felt that way, you know, like I no longer feel that way. But I remember what it felt like. And it just brings tears to my eyes because it's so painful and it's so harmful. And it's so untrue.

Kelly:
Thank you so much, Julie, for sharing all of that.

Julie:
Yeah. So the place I'm trying to get to is, when did I learn it's not for me? And it's after my marriage, after I was a year and a half or two years into my marriage. I'd finally done it. And we didn't have sex before our marriage. I did it right. I did it the right way. And I went to the temple and we got married in the temple and I did things and I finally was good enough and I was participating in calling and I was going to the temple. I was doing all of the, the prescription, was living the prescription, the prescribed lifestyle. And I was so unhappy. I was so overwhelmed, burned out, felt not good enough. There was never enough that I could do to feel like a peace.

And I asked that question of, you know, in my own reflection where I'm realizing this, I'm like, what more could I do? You know, what more could I do to finally just feel good enough? And I asked myself the question, this is a belief, you know, this is a belief and no one actually knows, no one can really know what happens after we die. So if I get to the end and I die and I discover that it wasn't Mormonism, it wasn't the truth. I believed it my whole life, but just discovered that it was something different. Would I regret the way that I lived my life? And it was just a crazy resounding yes. It was such a clear yes inside that I just had to reevaluate the way that I was engaging with it and doing it. And so that was the turning point for me. I was just beginning to examine my beliefs as beliefs, not as truths as they were taught to me, but as beliefs, and started asking what I authentically felt inside and what I authentically believed in and to do that work with my relationship with God. It was a really significant shift for me because not only was I allowing myself to ask the question and allowing myself to question, but I was also reclaiming the voice of authority of discernment from outside of myself to inside of myself and saying, I'm going to find these answers inside of here, as opposed to letting someone outside of me define that for me.

Kelly:
Gosh, that's so huge. And that kind of leads us into our next question, Julie, which is, you know, how do you feel like, and I know you could probably go in a lot of directions with this question, how you feel like your life and your relationships have changed since leaving the Mormon faith?

Julie:
That's a big question.

In every way. It's been a painful journey, but a really beautiful one because they've become more authentic. As I've become more authentic, as I've become more comfortable with who I am, it has ripple effects. I'm the common denominator. I'm the center point of everything else in my life. So the way that I show up in work, the way that I show up in my friendships, my family relationships, in my spirituality, my relationship with my new definition of God and with myself, all of it feels more true to me, all of it feels more from the inside out. And that required a lot of change and a lot of loss and a lot of falling on my face while I figured it out, you know, the transitions, it was painful.

I think it was imperfect, you know, in the way that I tried to pendulum swing and I'm setting boundaries now, but I'm doing it in a way that's maybe not the most graceful. So I've been hurt and I've hurt people in that process. It's very just human to go through that transition. But where I am now is, gosh, I still feel like I know nothing. I'm still learning so much of what it looks like and who I am and how that's going to evolve and take form. I don't know the mysteries of the universe or God. I don't have it all figured out, but I do feel deeply rooted in myself, like in the process, in the process of discovering and the process of unfolding. And I feel like no matter what it looks like and no matter how many times I'm humbled by, I thought I understood it this way and now I'm discovering that it's actually a different way or a different thing, no matter how many times I go through that and whatever topic it is, I'm connected to my center and now I can learn and I'm allowed to learn and have that be the whole point.

Michelle:
I think that is so important and can see how valuable that intuitive like clarification like turning inwards is because I think a lot of people when you're raised in this kind of mentality of you are taught this is how things are instead of taught to be more exploratory. You're taught to tamp down that voice. And I think that's a really big challenge for people when they leave those kind of religions is to turn up that voice and learn to trust it.

Julie:
Yes, something I feel really important to speak on here, especially in the context of this podcast, is how much ritual was a part of religion, how much ritual was absolutely a part of that religion too. That was a pretty tricky thing. It was a painful thing, triggering thing to reclaim for myself and to participate in. But that piece of it, that differentiation of doing this because everyone else is like, this is what's expected of me and here's how I'm participating. Like I'm kind of going along with it as opposed to how do I engage with this? How do I participate in this way that feels aligned from the inside? So ritual has now become something that feels sacred to me. And just even that language, it was so fascinating because it was so presented to me as like, these things are all sacred and you do them as like they're given to you.

But now ritual is again from the inside out and that was pretty triggering for a long time, and still sometimes creates that like, is this culty? This, you know, like what's going on here? And then I can find that comfort of going inside and saying, okay, how do I feel? And can I say no? And do I feel safe to say no? Because then they can choose to say yes. Just, yeah, when it comes to ritual, I think that that's pretty significant. And there's a lot of those things that I've reclaimed as true principles, but taught to me through a warped lens or a distorted lens. And the meaning was hijacked. It was like, here's the ritual, but when you feel certain things, here's the meaning that we're going to tell you that's what it means for you. And I've been able to reclaim a lot of that and redefine a lot of that. And I'm still doing that work.

But with sexuality, sexuality as a spiritual practice for me is one of the most significant places that I've done that work. Instead of sexual expression cutting you off from God and disconnecting you from God as it was talked to me, if it's not practiced within these parameters defined for me in those kinds of ways, it is sacred. My sexuality is sacred, but not through a purity culture lens. My sexuality is sacred to me because it's mine and it brings me closer to my concept of God and unconditional love, and it's part of my design. One of the most precious gifts of my life is my ability to feel alive and to fuel my life force energy and to protect it and choose how to wield it and choose how to express it and choose how to embody it. That's one of the most significant places I've redefined that.

Michelle:
So do you have any advice for people about tapping into their intuition more? I mean, whether they come from this kind of religious perspective or not.

Julie:
Absolutely. The thing that I would start first with is coming inward and allowing yourself to experiment and explore with different things to define it for yourself, whatever that looks like. You know, I've defined these things to be true and what works for me is totally okay to be different for somebody else. So that's first and foremost is allow yourself to really go inward.

But sensuality was one of my greatest tools in reclaiming my intuition. Because again, I had to come inward. I had to really get in tune with what am I feeling inside and what is that trying to tell me? Am I comfortable or am I uncomfortable? Am I safe? Or like, what is it trying to tell me? And bringing critical awareness to that. Is that a belief or is that coming from something that is my body's wisdom and having that discernment inside and just like being curious and observing that and slowing down and going inward and getting quiet. That's why I always say start with sensuality and kind of some meditations where you're just kind of in stillness. And the next step I would say is reclaiming that pleasure is innocent, the innocence of pleasure. Starting small with just kind of engaging with your body and the way that it interacts.

I love nature as a teacher. Being in nature and opening up my central experience to just communing with, connecting with nature, basic things like bare feet in the grass, or the sound of leaves and trees or whatever it is. Those things bring pleasure to me. They bring joy to me. And so when I can embrace my emotional experience, I can embrace my sensual experience, and I can allow myself, give myself permission to feel pleasure. And to discover what brings me pleasure and that is good. That is pure, that is innocent, that is good. Beyond that, there are comfort zones and growth edges and things like that because the sensual pleasure is on the same spectrum as sexual pleasure. It's just the different energy and the different types of arousal and the different types of pleasure that some are more associated with belief systems than others.

Kelly:
Mm-hmm.

Julie:
Right? It's easy to enjoy a piece of chocolate and say, yum, that is pleasurable. That is delicious. Or a warm, cozy blanket that feels somewhat nonthreatening to engage with. But can I touch my own body and can I allow myself to feel arousal or just pleasure or excitement without having to do anything about it? Even without something extreme like touching genitals or what? And I say that's extreme just because it's so overt. It's so explicitly sexual that we're going to kind of confront those belief systems there. But can I just allow myself to feel pleasure or feel turned on or feel arousal and just enjoy that? Just see what that feels like. That's the experiment. That's the experiment, especially because it's just connecting with yourself. And for myself, my definition of that is that is how I commune with my own divinity. When I bring presence, my own presence, to the practice of celebrating my body and celebrating the senses that my body is capable of experiencing and bringing intention and emotion to that. There's a whole process, but it can start so small. It can start so simple.

Kelly:
Wow. I love that. Yeah. Pleasure is innocence. Pleasure is good. I'm even thinking, Julie, I know this sounds maybe sensitive, but even the sweater I'm wearing right now, like this sweater feels so good on my body. It’s so funny I wore this for you today. Because I was like, it's cozy, but it's soft. Yeah, so my god, I'm just so inspired. Thank you.

Julie:
Thanks for sharing that. I feel honored. If there's nothing else, I'm doing something right if people are inspired to just wear things that feel good on their body. If they do that, they're like, oh I'm going to hang out with her, I want to feel good in my body, I'm doing something right. That just brings me so much joy, so thanks for sharing that.

Michelle:
You've given us so many amazing ritual ideas already, but do you have any really specific ones that you want to share with the listeners that you feel like would be a takeaway from our time today?

Julie:
Yes. So just kind of building on that concept of pleasure is innocent and bringing a curious mind and an openness to experimenting and exploring. Something for me that's a profound ingredient of a ritual is intention. And so I love to bring an intention of presence and connection to touch and movement. And so it's essentially that self-pleasure is a ritual or just even bringing the intention of seeking that pleasure. And so for me, that can be two ways. And I know we're entering the fall/winter season and whatnot. So there are two things that I love to do.

One is getting to know my body and having a conversation with the body that self pleasure can be like a meditation where I get to explore and discover what my body enjoys and what she doesn't like and so there can be a lot of sensual types of experiences that I can have. My personal favorite is to find those really great fuzzy blankets that you just want to pet in the store when you encounter them. I collect them and some of them keep their softness over time and others maybe don't but when I encounter a really really yummy one I want to get the biggest size possible and I just want to roll around naked in the fuzziness so that all of my skin can just experience yummy softness just for the sake of it, just for the pleasure of it. And it's fun to see, this is the other piece of it, so it's like that central touch point, but if I am allowing myself to feel whatever emotions I'm trying to feel, it's a meditation, right? So you're just kind of allowing whatever comes up without judgment, curiosity without judgment. If I allow the sensation of it, your expression comes through.

What kind of movement do I want to participate in? What kind of breath, what kind of sound? So that can just be like an inside type of ritual where the intention is pleasure, the intention is meditation, curiosity without judgment, and just discover what comes through. And that incorporates the movement, the sound, the breath, the touch.

And then the other one that I would just love to speak on is an outside one. And my favorite ritual for myself, I do this all the time and it brings me so much joy and so much pleasure. I go for dance walks. I put music in my ears and I go for a walk and I just, it's again, it's a movement meditation where the whole point is connection with myself and the way that I am engaging with the world around me. So I'm looking for colors that bring joy and spark pleasure for me. I have specific playlists that I've curated based on like what really inspires me, what makes me feel alive and feel joyful. And then when I move, and this was, kind of edgy. It's kind of like, I don't want to be the weird girl dancing along the sidewalk. Like, is she on drugs? But it's liberating because I just, I feel the freedom of it, the freedom of the expression. That's one that I really, really love, and allows my body to move and to like dance and feel the sensation of that. It brings me joy, it brings me pleasure. And that is self pleasure too. That's the innocence of pleasure. That's the innocence of bringing this intention to my body experience. And sometimes I'll sing along with it or I'll hum along with it. It’s just expressing out loud. So dance walks, you don't have to be walking. You can just find a really lovely place in a park or in the grass and it can be yoga in the grass, central movement, stretching, breathing in the grass and just allowing yourself to immerse in it and find the juicy pockets that bring more aliveness to you. So those are the two, the inside one and the outside one.

Michelle:
We were kind of talking about this because we went forest bathing together over the summer and we were reflecting on there is an element of racial privilege to this where it is easier to be out and about in a white body doing weird things. So I think, yeah, just for people that are listening, adapt it however you need. But also if you see somebody out there doing something weird, maybe give them a little bit of grace.

Julie:
I would also just add to that, I love that perspective. I think it's so important to acknowledge those pieces. You know, I would also add that maybe doing it together so you feel less alone, less of an outlier or like an odd man out, that maybe if we're being weird together, we don't feel quite so weird. And there's less fear and shame in it. And maybe there's more safety in numbers too, especially if you're a minority or, you know, in a vulnerable position, you know, as a woman for me going for a dance walk at night, like, I might draw certain attention or attract certain things. So there's just different factors to consider, but maybe doing it together with someone that you feel comfortable being weird with, like forest bathing with your ritual sister.

Kelly:
It is funny because those ideas, Julie, like I love blankets and Michelle, you love playlists. So I feel like, Julie, you're speaking to our souls there.

Julie:
I love it.

Michelle:
Well, this has been so amazing. We are going to continue the conversation for Patreon listeners. But before we go, Julie, where can people find you if they want to learn more about all this?

Julie:
Great question. I have a website and Instagram for my website. It's vibrancerelationshiptherapy.com. It speaks to a lot of my work as a marriage and family therapist, where I specialize in relationships, trauma healing, and sexuality. And so you can find my offerings there. Otherwise Instagram is a great way to engage. I'll probably just give my link tree because that's where I have different podcast episodes that I've recorded on other people's podcasts or my podcast, Let the Rivers Run Red.

My Linktree is probably the best way to just kind of connect with other things that I am doing and other creations that I have that I've released in the past.

Michelle:
Love it and we will link all that too. Thank you so much and ritual fam wherever you are or whatever you're doing, have a magical time.

Julie:
Yes, all right, bye.