Kelly (00:01)
Well, hello everyone. Welcome back to another episode of the Ritual Sisters podcast. We are so, so jazzed to be here today. And we have our guest today, John and David, who are close friends whose connection has grown over the years through language, curiosity, and Deaf culture. What started as a simple friendship has become something deeper.

a shared journey of learning, understanding, and communication. John, who is Deaf, and David, who is hearing, have built a bond that shows what allyship can really look like when it's grounded in respect and genuine connection. Their story reminds us that allyship isn't about getting everything perfect. It's about showing up, seeing different perspectives, and growing together. Welcome, David and John.

David Naert (00:59)
Hello, thank you so much for having me. This is David on Ritual Sisters. I'm so excited to be here, especially with my great friend, John. This conversation is one that's really close to my heart because it's about allyship, connection, and communication, and how language shapes the way we understand and show up for each other in everyday life. ⁓ I've always been super passionate about language and connection. I grew up speaking English, learned Spanish.

Michelle (01:00)
Mm-mm.

David Naert (01:28)
as a second language and for the past three years, I've been focusing on learning American Sign Language and my understanding of Deaf culture. It's been a journey that's challenged and inspired me in so many ways. ⁓ I do want to share right up front that I am hearing and I'm not a native user of ASL. I'm still learning and growing in this space. ⁓ I know that the most important perspectives in this space belong to Deaf people themselves.

And that's why I'm so honored to share today's episode with my good friend, John. His lived experience and insight are at the heart of this conversation. And I'm so grateful he's here to share this episode with us. You'll also see our ASL interpreter friends, Caitlin and Akilah, who will be helping interpret this episode to provide equal access for all. So my hope for today is that we don't just talk about communication or allyship, but that we all really start to embody it by connecting deeply

learning openly and celebrating the ways language connects us all. So thank you so much again for having us and I would like to ⁓ let John make a few opening comments as well.

ASL Interpreter: Katelyn Wyatt (02:42)
Hello everybody and thank you so much for being here. My name is John and I am from Des Moines, Iowa. I was born completely Deaf and my parents didn't actually know I was Deaf until I was around two years old. And that's when I started learning ASL, American Sign Language, which is my first language. For most of my education, I was mainstreamed with schools and I did have an ASL interpreter with me every day.

In high school, joined to the Iowa, I joined over to the Iowa School for the Deaf and I was able to have direct communication with my Deaf teachers and also with my Deaf peers who were able to go through similar experiences and also have a shared language. I'm really looking forward to talking more about communication overall and Deaf culture, especially with my very good friend David.

Kelly (03:38)
so fabulous. And, you know, we typically like to start all of our episodes by getting to know our guests. And so we're tweaking these questions a little bit just to honor David and John's connections. So our first question is, tell us a bit about how you came into each other's lives.

David Naert (04:04)
Sure, I can start. We actually met four and a half years ago in 2021. We were put on the same volleyball team in a sand volleyball league. And John, I was like a free agent, so I didn't know anyone else on the team. And John ended up being on the same team as me. We quickly realized we were way better skilled than a lot of the other people on our team.

Kelly (04:06)
Yeah.

David Naert (04:32)
besides the point we were moved up to the to the competitive level but it was fun uh but yeah he showed up with a ASL interpreter and um it just it was i want to say and i was uninitiated to Deaf culture i was um i had never to my knowledge interacted with a Deaf person before and it was uh

just a special moment to be able to communicate with him via the interpreter. And it really just sparked my curiosity. And I just really loved the connection we had from the get-go. Despite our first language differences, it was just really cool. And we quickly became friends. So yeah, John, do you have anything to add to how we came into each other's lives?

ASL Interpreter: Katelyn Wyatt (05:30)
Oh, for sure. And I do also want to add that in 2020, I was living in Washington, DC for about eight years at that time. And then I decided it was time to move back to Des Moines, Iowa. And I needed that friendship. I didn't really have any adult friends that were in my area because I went to high school in a different area in

Iowa and so that was two hours away from Des Moines and I really needed friends in my direct area so I decided to sign up and I was definitely a little nervous of course and I thought I would probably be the only Deaf person there and that tends to be pretty typical you know that's pretty typical for my everyday life but as soon as I met David it was just easy it was easy to

Just have a conversation with him, especially the first day of the game. was really, really nice.

Michelle (06:35)
It's beautiful to hear from both sides. I love that. So we also ask everyone about what season of life you're in. So we wanted to ask you what season of friendship are you in right now?

David Naert (07:00)
I think the season of friendship we're in changes growth, appreciation. Really, it started as a spark in my friendship started and later I'm going to talk more about this later, but I started learning ASL at a later time. And then the season we're in now, I would just say is like

We've been apart the past year. actually started working in the area where John went to school when he was ⁓ in ⁓ in Council Bluffs there in Western Iowa. And I've been there the past year starting an interpreting program, learning more ASL, learning more about Deaf culture, getting more into the community. But as John just stated, he did all that two hours away from Des Moines, and I've been doing that the past year, two hours away from Des Moines. So I think

the season is just appreciation from a distance and growth from a distance. But when I do come back to Des Moines and there are plans to soon fully come back to Des Moines, it's just like really about connecting and appreciating each other due to the distance we've been apart the past year, but also knowing that it's a temporary thing and our friendship will.

evolve and change whether I'm here or there, we're back in the same city, but it's just been beautiful to know that he's supportive of what I'm doing and where I've been the past year and even from a distance and it's just been great. So, yeah.

ASL Interpreter: Katelyn Wyatt (08:53)
For me, feel like right now it's getting on a deeper level. And the reason being for that is because I'm noticing, ⁓ I'm noticing more about David's personality. And I just really love and truly care about his confidence. He's very confident in...

His confidence with being proactive and trying to be more involved with my everyday life. An example being that David's actually going to Deaf social events and has been doing it often. And I don't see that often from a hearing counterpart. So it's really, really cool to see him truly showing up and often showing up. And I really deeply care about

David's motivation and his motivation to continue his education into Deaf culture and language acquisition.

David Naert (09:57)
Absolutely. Thank you. No, that means that means a lot and I think I think I think the the topic you were gonna move on to was like how is the friendship shifted over time and I just want to like jump right into that because when I started this friendship, it was really centered on

you know, we we kind of became friends, I didn't know any ASL, so we kind of became friends with using English. And it was kind of really centered on the mainstream hearing world. And then when I realized over time, I really loved this person and liked this friendship and really wanted to cultivate the friendship. And I knew I needed to dig deeper to make that happen and make a better connection with this person who was starting to mean so much to me. So ⁓

Like we stated, we met back in the spring of 2021. I decided to start learning ASL in August, 2022. Uh, so it was a, it was a good chunk of time between meeting John to actually taking the leap to start learning, but it was because I just wanted to continue to foster that friendship. And I knew that I needed to connect with him more deeply and learn about.

his way of life and it not only became, to John's point, it not only became about wanting to learn more to connect with him and his Deaf friends, but it became all of Deaf culture and to the point of moving to Council Bluffs to participate in that Deaf community and all of that. So it's just been a joy and so fun to learn ASL and I'm still learning. It's such a process. It's my third language and I...

I struggle a lot and I make mistakes, but I try to stay confident. It's just been so very meaningful and transformative and a beautiful change in my life to the point where it's affected my whole life. ⁓ And John was like the seed and like the spark in the plant of that. So it's just been so beautiful. Yeah, I can't think of enough, but yeah. So is there any...

Michelle (11:51)
Thank

Kelly (12:12)
Mm.

David Naert (12:15)
anything you'd like to say about how it shifted over time, John, because it has changed so much and I cannot believe it's like coming up on five years and stuff. It's just crazy. So.

Michelle (12:24)
Yeah.

Kelly (12:26)
Wow.

ASL Interpreter: Katelyn Wyatt (12:27)
Yeah, for sure. I mean, time goes by so, quickly. And I do also want to mention that a big shift I felt like was recently. ⁓ few weeks ago, it was my high school homecoming weekend. Just a few weeks ago, I thought, OK, let's go ahead and see my old high school mates. And I was able to see David there, who's coaching the volleyball team. And I felt like that was the shift.

That was the most recent shift because David was able to see my own high school, my old teachers that are still there, and some of my classmates who are also working at that high school now. And so I felt like David is really stepping into my world and seeing where my growing up, language, my everything came from and navigating my high school.

Kelly (12:57)
Hmm.

ASL Interpreter: Katelyn Wyatt (13:25)
in his eyes and also my eyes too. So I feel like that's really where a big shift just happened recently.

David Naert (13:32)
Yeah, definitely. feel like there's been, I don't want to say small shifts, there's definitely been small shifts and big shifts. Like the leap to start learning ASL was like a huge shift and then continuing with that. then just, it's been so beautiful because having learned more about your world has opened my world and my mind to a place.

where I never thought before it could be possible. So it's just been so beautiful and ⁓ not to like make a Disney quote, but there's like this, there's this song from, I want to say it's like Pocahontas and it's like, ⁓ you'll learn things from strangers you never knew, you never knew. Meaning like, when you like accept a stranger into your life, you like,

Kelly (14:09)
We welcome it.

David Naert (14:27)
never know what you can learn from them because you never even thought about it. Like I never even thought in my whole life, in my 30 years of life to start learning ASL until I met John. And it has transformed my life in the most transformative, beautiful way possible. just being open to that connection with someone that comes from a different walk of life from you is

Incredible.

Michelle (14:59)
Yeah, I think that's really going to be very impactful for people to hear about because how often do we, whether consciously or subconsciously, notice a difference between ourselves and someone else and then just immediately block off, like, I'll never be able to develop this connection. it's like five years, that's a long time, but it's also a short amount of time too that you can really grow into.

Kelly (15:15)
Mm-hmm.

Michelle (15:25)
this relationship if you put in that effort. So thank you for being here and sharing this. I love this.

Kelly (15:32)
⁓ I'm so inspired.

David Naert (15:32)
Thank you. Yes.

It's so, it's so like beautiful to reflect about because we just get so busy with our lives and John and I are both so busy in our careers and our work.

It's just been, we can't thank you enough for having us today and just like reflecting on this because it's such an important thing. And I think a lot of people will resonate with it. So.

Kelly (16:06)
Absolutely. you know, being the Ritual Sisters podcast, know, Michelle and I were curious whether it's small or big rituals. You know, what helps you both nurture your friendship?

ASL Interpreter: Katelyn Wyatt (16:29)
⁓ That's a great and also beautiful question. And I could go on and on about it, but I want to think about something that is super specific. David, did you want to go first?

David Naert (16:43)
Yeah,

yeah, I have some some thoughts about that. One thing that I really appreciate about our friendship is like, ⁓ when I'm home, when we're both in Des Moines, I know I can just like, randomly text John and be like, ⁓ like a little ritual we have is like, do you want to go to lunch? Do you want to go outside? Do you want to?

have a sleepover, do you want to do this or do that? It's just like so spontaneous. And that is like really important to me ⁓ that I have someone in my life close by who I can out of the blue, just call up or text and, and try to make, you know, some kind of plan and to hang out and meet up because it's not often that there are people, at least in my life, who I

who I can just do that with and not have to make a plan days in advance or weeks in advance because we're all adults busy. so. Yes.

Kelly (17:42)
David, that is so true. I love that you're bringing up spontaneity. Like I think you're right.

As we're getting older, it's getting more rare, which makes me so sad. Thank you for saying this. Like, yes.

David Naert (17:55)
The spontaneity is like joy in my life. For me, John knows how spontaneous I am and I don't know if he like loves it or not, but he goes along with it.

ASL Interpreter: Katelyn Wyatt (18:10)
Keep doing it, David. Keep at it.

David Naert (18:14)
Also, another thing that I would describe as like a tradition in our friendship is when me and my husband like travel somewhere, whether it's like for an event or for visiting somewhere that we think is is a interesting place to go or whatever, we always book hotel rooms with two beds in case John wants to come join us. So it's just like really funny and like cool because John will like either

Kelly (18:38)
Yes!

David Naert (18:44)
like be like, join the day before or like come back like months in advance. And it's just so funny. I love it's such like a fun thing ⁓ to experience life outside of Iowa with him and all the travels we've done together as well, whether it's just with John or with John and my husband, it's just been really cool to have those experiences ⁓ as well. And then I think the last thing I would say that is kind of like

a ritual in our friendship is when we just want to like relax and chill and do nothing, we like go to his family's lake house in Northern Iowa and just hang out there and do nothing and just enjoy the peace of nothing but still, you know, together. And the the thing for me is like not only the spontaneity of the friendship, but also the relaxed feeling.

where you don't feel like you have to be on all the time. Like, you know what I mean? That kind of thing. It's just really cool. So I don't know if those are like specifically rituals, but those are things that I've noticed that like are like traditions within our friendship. So John, did you, I don't know if you have anything to add. You probably think of the spots and anything is so true.

ASL Interpreter: Akilah (20:05)
I mean,

I feel like you pretty much said all of it, really. But one thing I do want to add is that I do notice during the summer times now, we'll go to Pride, the Pride Festival or Pride related events. Before that weekend starts, we'll typically maybe go get our nails done or maybe we'll go and get the hydration IV so that we're making sure we're ready and healthy for the weekend coming up.

David Naert (20:09)
Mm.

I'm

Kelly (20:32)
Smart.

ASL Interpreter: Akilah (20:37)
Yeah.

And last ritual I wanted to add, I'm not sure if it applies to this question specifically, but my whole life, my ultimate goal is always just to build a bridge between hearing and the Deaf world, right? Building that connection. So I feel like I have that with David, right? I'm bringing David into my Deaf world and he's joining me with my Deaf friends.

he's joining me with different Deaf social events as well. And at the same time I feel like I get to join David's world with him with his friend group and his events, you know?

Kelly (21:18)
Hmm.

ASL Interpreter: Akilah (21:20)
his hearing friends get together and I'll go with them and hang out. And he always brings Deaf culture and awareness to his side too. So it's just nice to have that connection and building that bridge.

Michelle (21:34)
Thank

David Naert (21:35)
Yeah, absolutely.

It's so beautiful, I think, have to step into each other's worlds in different ways. You know, it does go both ways. Like John has hung out with my family, with my friends, with the and and you know, with the English I grew up with and things like that. And it's it's just so cool to to have John there, because, like I said ⁓ before I met John,

I knew no ASL, I nothing about Deaf culture. And now that John is like stepping into that with me, we, feel like have been together and he's been the huge, great example of, know, of bridging those worlds together, ⁓ the Deaf culture world with hearing folks who may know little ASL or know ASL or nothing about Deaf culture. It's just been so...

cool to experience with him.

Michelle (22:37)
Yeah, so kind of along those lines, John, what do you wish that hearing people knew about Deaf culture?

Kelly (22:41)
Mm-hmm.

ASL Interpreter: Akilah (22:52)
Ugh, so many things.

One thing that I really wish is that...

say this. ⁓

For example, oftentimes hearing people will come up to me and say, hey, I wish I learned ASL.

David Naert (23:11)
Thank

ASL Interpreter: Akilah (23:19)
⁓ Do it! I mean, what's stopping you? There's so many wonderful resources online, on social media, at school, and a lot of the materials are taught by Deaf individuals themselves. So please take advantage of those opportunities. Don't just wish and wait and do nothing about it.

Michelle (23:20)
Yeah.

That's a really good one. There is usually a gap between what we want and what we're doing to actually get there. So that's a good reminder. There's a lot out there.

Kelly (23:58)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

David Naert (24:01)
Yeah, and if I

could just add to John's comment about that, ⁓ it's just like, it's like in my mind, one of the

Kelly (24:11)
Mm-hmm.

David Naert (24:15)
most disrespectful things hearing people do is continue to connect with a Deaf person and say, I want to learn ASL. I want to learn ASL. And they'll like, they'll not only say it once, but they'll say it multiple times. And when you show that you're not doing anything to actually attempt to do that, I think that is so disheartening for the Deaf community and really just not respectful at all.

but yeah, I think it's just, ⁓ just little things like that where, where, that I've learned from John, like, ⁓ because now when I hear, when I hear people say, they, look at me and they see me sign with John and the John's going to laugh at this, but they'll see me sign and they'll be like, David, you're so good at ASL. You're so like great and fluent. I'm like, first of all, no, I'm not.

Kelly (25:06)
Hmm.

David Naert (25:14)
Second of all, I'm still learning and improving in this space, thank you. And then they'll say things like, I wish I knew that. I wish I could talk to your friend. I wish I could communicate with him in ASL. I wish I could do this. I wish I could do that. And to John's point, I've started learning from him first to say things like, you just have to go for it and do it. it is worse to...

Kelly (25:35)
Mm.

David Naert (25:39)
say, I want to do this, I want to do this, and continually to say something like that and not take action because that is, I think, so disrespectful to the Deaf community and anyone who has a meaningful Deaf person in their lives. That's just me. Don, do you have anything more to add to that?

ASL Interpreter: Akilah (26:03)
No, not really. I mean, you pretty much said it all. Other thing too, oftentimes hearing people will ⁓ get kind of nervous to come up to me.

Kelly (26:16)
Hmm.

ASL Interpreter: Akilah (26:20)
I think that they think that there are not other ways to communicate, but there's so many different ways, right? Come up to me and you can text on your phone and show me, you can learn ASL, or, you know, we can figure it out.

Kelly (26:24)
Hmm.

Michelle (26:36)
Yeah, that's a good point too.

David Naert (26:37)
Absolutely.

Kelly (26:40)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, so so important what you both are sharing so important

Michelle (26:48)
Is there anything John that

ASL Interpreter: Akilah (26:50)
Yeah, and I do want to add one more thing too. Another

Kelly (26:53)
Mm-hmm.

Please.

ASL Interpreter: Akilah (26:54)
thing is I wish that people would know

That Deaf is an identity, right? It's not just a disability.

Kelly (27:03)
Mmm.

ASL Interpreter: Akilah (27:05)
We have a huge community and culture and...

How can I put this?

I'm thinking about a phrase this.

There is a spectrum of people who identify as being Deaf, right? People who identify as being extremely Deaf or hard of hearing. And there's language that is on that spectrum as well. People who use ASL only or people who use ⁓ what's called English, a more English form of ASL. We do have some Deaf people or hard of hearing individuals who don't sign at all and prefer to speak, right? Again, on that spectrum, there's a variety and a diverse group of people.

Kelly (27:32)
Hmm.

Michelle (27:58)
Yeah, I think it is something that a lot of hearing people are just not aware of at all. And I wasn't aware of that until probably, yeah, fairly recently. So I think that's really helpful for people to know that, know, Deaf is a community and culture.

Are there things that you really love about the Deaf community and culture? mean, I'm sure there are, shouldn't phrase it like that. What do you love about the Deaf community and culture, John?

Kelly (28:27)
Incoming.

ASL Interpreter: Akilah (28:40)
I love that we are our own world, honestly. We have so many... ⁓

Kelly (28:43)
Yes, ma'am.

ASL Interpreter: Akilah (28:52)
cultural signs that relate back to the Deaf world.

We have a small community that is really tight knit, right? The Deaf community is getting smaller and smaller as time goes on.

David Naert (29:09)
Yeah, and it truly is like its own culture. And I had an amazing opportunity in my first couple of years learning ASL. I actually went to visit for two weeks to Gallaudet University where John went to college and it was like studying abroad, but I was still inside my own country. It was just amazing. And it was terrifying because I was an ASL 3 and I felt like I was just really awkward with my signing. But you know,

Kelly (29:26)
Yeah

David Naert (29:39)
We can't grow in any way, or form and improve our lives if we don't start getting uncomfortable. So that is my like thing that keeps me confident because I have tried and I continue to try every day to be comfortable in uncomfortable, concomfrable-bility, if that's a word. yeah.

Kelly (29:46)
Yes.

Mm-hmm.

David Naert (30:02)
just become comfortable with not being comfortable.

Michelle (30:02)
Best comfort? ⁓

David Naert (30:05)
And that is what this whole journey of learning ASL and Deaf culture is because I started learning and I struggled a lot and I still struggle. And it's my third language and I've only been learning three years and they say really to get a good hold of a language takes like eight to nine years. So I just know that

Like, I just want to continue and I'm so thankful that John sees that confidence in me because that's really special to know and have in my life. So.

ASL Interpreter: Akilah (30:46)
Yeah. And being honest, I don't have many friends like you, David. I don't have. mean, growing up, I've always had female friends, right? ⁓

Mostly in the interpreting profession, there's a lot of women, right? So it's easy to make friends with a lot of women who learn ASL. I've noticed that women are more willing to learn new languages. I'm not sure why that is, but David is my good male friend that I never had growing up.

Kelly (31:20)
you

David Naert (31:25)
Definitely, yeah. Now that I've dived more into not only learning ASL and learning more about Deaf culture, but now scratching the surface of the interpreting profession, is very, ⁓ it's so true. A lot of my colleagues in the field and a lot of the students I ⁓ communicate with are, it's really a women-led profession, which is wonderful.

⁓ but at the same time, there's Deaf men all over the nation that, that need those, you know, those folks, those men that are willing to learn ASL as well. So it's just awesome to, to hear that as well. So, yeah.

Kelly (32:08)
Hmm.

ASL Interpreter: Akilah (32:14)
Yes, and I will say, I mean, it really, it sees my expectations in dates as well, because whoever I date, you know, now there's no excuse. There's no excuse. Thank you to David for that. Thank you, David.

Kelly (32:27)
Yeah, great point.

Yes!

David Naert (32:35)
I'm

sorry for raising the bar so high, but no, just kidding. No, I love it. I love it. love it. Yeah, so yeah, that's, it's such, yeah, go ahead.

Kelly (32:39)
Keep raising it.

ASL Interpreter: Akilah (32:47)
But honestly,

that makes me realize that that's how it should be, you know? When I'm dating another person, I mean, that's how it should be. You gotta learn ASL, period. There's no excuse.

David Naert (33:04)
So true, yeah.

ASL Interpreter: Akilah (33:06)
So

thank you for making me realize that. David.

David Naert (33:10)
You're welcome. And I think my thing is like, you make, whenever someone new comes into your life that means something to you that you want to develop a connection with, and they're different from you if they grew up with a different language or they grew up with a different identity or in a different country, like you cannot connect on any kind of deep level if you do not make an effort to learn about them and their experiences.

Kelly (33:12)
You

Hmm. Wow, I love how you just said that.

Michelle (33:48)
So we were also wondering about like what does communication mean to both of you and what does good communication look like in everyday life?

Kelly (33:54)
Mm-hmm.

David Naert (34:03)
Yeah, I can start. think communication to me really in its simplest form means a mutual understanding of each other, which helps foster deeper connection and, you know, peace between people. We use language to connect, collaborate and show care for one another. In everyday life to me, communication is all about connection.

⁓ the countless ways we really express and understand each other beyond just words, whether it's using English or Spanish or ASL or any language, ⁓ whether we are speaking or, ⁓ using our hands to communicate or using our eyes to communicate and taking information or using our ears, ⁓ or using touch. Like it's all just so important to recognize that. I think a lot of people need to understand that.

Communication is not just about words coming out of a mouth and hearing it with your ears. Like there are so many different ways that humans communicate and have for years and years. ⁓ that's just, I don't know whether it's just a bridge between people and whether that's through sound, sight or touch, it's just, it's all communication. ⁓ Yeah, so.

Kelly (35:04)
Hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

David Naert (35:28)
That's what I think that's what communication means to me. And good communication obviously looks like, you know, making those deeper connections with people. And if they communicate in a way that's different from you, learn about it.

Michelle (35:47)
Well, it makes me even think about what you were saying before about hearing people saying, I wish I was learning sign language, that it's like, what is the message beneath that is like, I'm not actually going to put in the effort to do this. And people can get so focused on like, my words are saying this, so you should believe this. But there's so much more beneath that that we also have to be paying attention to.

David Naert (36:16)
Yeah, I think it all goes back to doing what you say you're gonna do and meaning it and not just talking the talk and walking the walk. That can be applied to any aspect of life, but it's especially true when you are saying something like that to a group of people who historically miss out on a lot of communication just for the fact of the way they've come into this world.

Kelly (36:21)
Hmm.

Michelle and were also wondering...

ASL Interpreter: Katelyn Wyatt (36:49)
Thank you.

David Naert (36:51)
⁓ go ahead, John.

Kelly (36:54)
Go ahead, Don.

ASL Interpreter: Katelyn Wyatt (37:00)
I mean, pretty much everything that David said was spot on. And I think it's important for me as a Deaf person, know, communication is physical. I want to be able to have that physical touch. And that's a huge piece of communication for me.

Kelly (37:19)
Hmm. Yeah, and maybe to share more about that, Michelle and I were wondering how communication from y'all's perspective, you know, strengthens connection.

David Naert (37:36)
Yeah, I can think of an example, John, ⁓ of like a specific story where communication really strengthened our connection. ⁓ I remember we were in Chicago, John, and we were somewhere and I stepped outside and we started using ASL and communicating through the window. And it was just really cool because we were able to

talk through the window and that's an aspect of Deaf culture. And it's just, was so cool to share that with you. ⁓ because, know, it was seemingly like we were the only people that could do that at that time, seemingly. And cause hearing people can't, can't very well communicate through a window oftentimes. So just having that like moment of shared connection and experience that goes back to ties and Deaf culture where

windows are really symbols of connection and, and, and, you know, growth and, you know, doors are symbols of some of oppression and the Deaf community. It just was really cool to know that because of what John inspired me to start doing Learn ASL, I now can share not only in his language, but in the beautiful culture that he has with his Deaf world.

So that was a really special moment. And we have moments like that occasionally with the window thing, but yeah, it's really cool.

Kelly (39:06)
I love that.

ASL Interpreter: Katelyn Wyatt (39:13)
I also definitely need to add that, you know, not just be able to communicate through the windows, but also a bar or an area that is so ridiculously loud. We don't have to struggle to communicate because we're using our hands to sign and it's super easy to be able to understand each other.

Kelly (39:22)
Oh yeah.

David Naert (39:32)
Yeah, it's like so fun because we can be like across the room like 25 feet away from each other and still able to communicate and it's just like so cool. And ⁓ yeah, like I remember we were in Chicago at a bar, I think it was a different trip, you were signing and I was still learning ASL and you were signing, I'm so happy we can communicate without speaking and I was still in the process of learning ASL so I was like, what are you signing to me?

Kelly (39:58)
Yeah

David Naert (39:58)
And I eventually

got it, but it was like, yes, like that's the goal. That's like what, that's like why we're doing this. It was just so cool to share those moments of connection and culture. So yeah, I think there's definitely been different aspects that have really strengthened our connection ⁓ through communication avenues.

Michelle (40:27)
Well, we also want to talk about allyship as well. ⁓ Can both of you speak to what allyship looks like to you? What does that mean to you?

ASL Interpreter: Katelyn Wyatt (40:48)
Just show up. Show up and make that effort.

show up at Deaf social events, and support the Deaf community. That is allyship for me.

David Naert (41:03)
Yeah, definitely. And just to add to that, think it means not speaking for that person or group of people, but standing with them, creating access, visibility, fostering respect while continually learning and adjusting your actions based on new experiences. I, John and other Deaf folks have taught me so much about how to navigate the...

my learning of ASL and my navigation of entering the interpreting profession and my navigation of interacting with the Deaf community and just being open to taking in that information and really like learning from it and adjusting the way you behave because ⁓ you're not only, you know, you're not only standing alongside that individual or that group of people, but

You have to be willing to learn from them and adjust your actions accordingly to be more respectful and more inclusive. Yeah. ⁓

ASL Interpreter: Katelyn Wyatt (42:15)
I do want to also add a couple of things. I David's allyship and how he hosts it and how he showcases it is hosting trivia night for Deaf culture at bars. And so it's really cool that David is bringing that cultural awareness to a bar where people are able to learn firsthand. And I really appreciate that showcasing of allyship. David also hosts movie night at the bar as well.

and the movie was... what was that movie again, David?

David Naert (42:48)
President now.

ASL Interpreter: Katelyn Wyatt (42:49)
Yes,

the DPN, the Deaf president now. And he was able to actually fundraise money for the Des Moines Association for the Deaf. And that was huge. And that's a huge showcase of what allyship looks like.

Kelly (43:01)
Wow.

Michelle (43:09)
beautiful.

Kelly (43:09)
⁓

I love John that you're sharing all of this. And David, when did you start this? I think that's a really beautiful example.

David Naert (43:17)
Yeah

Yeah, I, when I was, a couple years ago, I think I started those nights at the breweries, John, where I would just, yeah, like bring those, bring the ASL social, like trivia thing to the bars and helping with that. And it was really cool because I was still in like, I would say my like infancy of learning ASL, but you,

Kelly (43:27)
The trivia.

you

David Naert (43:48)
don't have to be perfect to start supporting the community. they have been, the Deaf community has been so wonderful to me and just like uplifting and have, you know, have there been times where I've struggled with communication or not understood something or completely, you know, messed up a sign or something or yes, but they're so, what's beautiful about the Deaf community is they're so like supportive of your.

learning and they want to foster that environment. So I'm so happy to help set up and provide spaces that support the community because they've given so much to me and I obviously want to give back and have that mutual support.

Kelly (44:49)
I know we're touching on this. do want to ask this question though, in case it pings something for either of you. So the question is, are there specific actions, habits or practices that you think are important for someone who wants to be an ally in the Deaf community?

ASL Interpreter: Katelyn Wyatt (45:19)
so many ways. Let me think of a specific example. I would say. Just learn basic sign. And showing a Deaf person what you've learned.

David Naert (45:40)
Yeah, definitely. think when...

Like Kelly, Michelle, when you started this podcast, I wanted to be a part of it. And I knew, think, I think a specific action, at least that I took, was bringing John into this conversation, bringing John into this podcast. Because I don't want to sit here and talk about my experiences with the Deaf community without having

my Deaf friend here because he's the root of the experience and he's the reason I'm even talking about this and he's the reason I'm even doing all of this with my life. So how can I not include him in the conversation? Like, and a lot of times I feel...

Kelly (46:20)
Mm-hmm.

David Naert (46:37)
Sometimes we folks don't always support the Deaf community in those ways. They maybe learn some ASL and they go and they do something with it that doesn't include a Deaf person or not a Deaf person's perspective. So I think just centering Deaf voices, especially in spaces that are meant for them, amplifying Deaf folks and respecting their valuable contributions to the world. ⁓ Let Deaf people lead in conversations about their culture, access and rights, I think is huge.

Like John said, learn ASL, use it respectfully. Not only learn ASL, but learn a lot of ASL and also learn about Deaf culture and learn from Deaf educators. Like learn from teachers who are Deaf, who are native users of Deaf culture and native users of American Sign Language. They know it best. So that's what I would say is how you can...

specific things you can do, ⁓ support, captioning, interpreters, visual communication, access in all environments, like workplaces, events, classrooms, doing even simple things that people just don't think of when they post an Instagram video or a Facebook video and they have audio, they don't add a transcript, they don't add captions, they don't sometimes don't do any of that. just ca-

Kelly (47:48)
Mm-hmm.

David Naert (48:02)
caption your social media, like so Deaf people can access the content. And I cannot thank John and Akilah and Katelyn enough for being here and helping with this conversation because we are truly like resonating access for folks here with the voicing and signing and the interpretation. And I think it's just so.

Amazing that this all the six of us has come together because it's truly like a beautiful example and Yeah It's just so wonderful like I love this right now

Kelly (48:29)
Yeah.

Michelle (48:40)
Thank you.

ASL Interpreter: Katelyn Wyatt (48:44)
I need to add to that too, and honestly, it's not that difficult. People think it's incredibly difficult, you know, to get into this group, but it's actually easier than what you may think it is.

Michelle (49:02)
I think that is helpful for people to hear that the Deaf community is very welcoming and wanting people to learn. I think that takes away maybe a little bit of the fear, but I think also kind of what you were saying before, David, that it's okay to be uncomfortable and like it's okay to make mistakes and for even somebody to be upset with you if you make a mistake, like that's just all part of life. And I don't think

I think in an ideal world we could be okay with making mistakes and being uncomfortable and looking stupid sometimes.

Kelly (49:34)
⁓ I totally agree with you. Like I feel there's so much encouragement. And John, I think you mentioned, yeah, just show up. Like that really stood out to me.

David Naert (49:49)
Yeah, and just like touching on uncomfortable- or I keep saying uncomfortability. Just stop touching again on being uncomfortable. ⁓

Michelle (49:54)
It's discomfort.

David Naert (50:03)
The world is centered around, you know, hearing people, hearing privilege, you know, Deaf folks, you know, get uncomfortable every day entering the hearing world because they have to. And if we can do a little bit to make, to take that, make them feel more comfortable by our, by becoming comfortable with our uncomfortableness, that really helps, I think. So, and it's just, it's just.

It goes back to being a respectful human and interacting with those who are different from you.

Michelle (50:41)
Yeah, I mean, I've said it before, but I was an exchange student in France and French people are notorious for not being nice if you don't speak well. And I survived that. So we all, we all can get out there and survive as people that are like kind if you make a mistake.

Kelly (51:05)
I'm so inspired just by this friendship, like the arc of the friendship, how it continues to evolve. And John and David, I just want to give you a chance as we're heading to the end of our time. Just if there's anything you're called to say to, you know, to share with each other. ⁓ Yeah, any, really anything. I'm just so inspired by both of you.

David Naert (51:37)
Yeah, I think for me, ⁓ just...

taking like, like going back to even John's comment about folks that say, I want to learn ASL, I want to learn ASL. I had that in my mind for a bit of time ever since I met him. And it took me some time to get there and like, sign up for that first class and like pay for it and pull the trigger on starting to learn ASL. And that was like,

a huge decision in the trajectory of my life, even though it seems like a simple decision. You're just starting to learn something new. But the way it can build and snowball into something that becomes so important to your life is just amazing. So I first started learning it for fun and I was like, I'm just learning for fun. want to have a better connection with John. I want to have a better connection with his friends.

And it really, despite me like kind of pushing back because I had a career in business. had my background. had things going for me in the business world and I, and it just, it just blew up into, I love it so much. Like John has inspired me so much. love the culture he's in. I love this language. I love learning it. I want to do it the rest of my life. And it's just so.

special to me that it all started because I met someone on my volleyball team and decided to start learning more about them. And yeah, I just want to say that it's changed my life for the better in so many ways. Like it's completely transformed everything and I...

Kelly, Michelle, think when I was in Colorado this summer, I started speaking about this and I was just like, like John, I was in Colorado for the Aspen camp for the Deaf and hard of hearing. And then I went to visit Kelly and Michelle in Fort Collins. And I was just explaining how when I wake up every day and get to go work in the Deaf community and get to go learn in the Deaf community, it brings me so much joy and it brings me so much purpose that I didn't.

Kelly (53:42)
Hmm.

David Naert (54:09)
really have before I met you. So that is what I want to say. Just thank you for being an inspiration not only to me, but to so many people that you come in contact with.

ASL Interpreter: Akilah (54:26)
Love you!

Kelly (54:28)
Aww.

David Naert (54:30)
Love you too.

ASL Interpreter: Akilah (54:35)
For me, I would just say I've been loving to see John grow and evolve into my world. I love seeing your confidence.

I love seeing that you're comfortable being able to hang out and travel with my Deaf friends without me, right? I heard that you went to my friend's house a few weeks ago without me. Honestly, I think that's amazing. Honestly, I do.

I just love to see how David can grow from day one when I met him at volleyball. He knew absolutely nothing to the point where he's becoming nervous about his receptive skills and being able to understand the language. Now his receptive skills have improved so much. So I just really love to see the evolution.

Michelle (55:29)
So beautiful and I hope you guys, if you need help writing your book together, let me know because this would be amazing. Yeah, I'm not sure where to start. man. Alright, any last remarks before we close out for today?

David Naert (55:30)
Yes, thank you. Yeah, go ahead, Michelle.

Kelly (55:36)
gonna say this needs to be a book this french yes it does

David Naert (55:50)
⁓ I'll say, I'll say some last final things and I'll give John a chance to really, you know, wrap up the conversation. But I guess, and or no, Kelly, Michelle, I know you have some closing thoughts too. ⁓ so, but I, yeah, I just want to say, I want to reiterate John's point that the Deaf community needs to be recognized as a cultural identity rooted.

Kelly (55:56)
Mm-hmm.

David Naert (56:17)
and shared experience of visual language and the pride that they have in that world. I just want to reiterate that fact that that John stated and just just understanding that Deaf people are very proud of this and we have to continue to foster that kind of environment for the community. And I think John and I's friendship is a really good example, like John said, of bridging the Deaf community with the hearing community. And it's just really beautiful. And I'm so proud of what

John does every day and is going to continue to do with connecting, making those human connections because that's really what matters.

Michelle (57:05)
Well, thank you both. ⁓ John, do you have another thought? ⁓

ASL Interpreter: Akilah (57:12)
Yes, I do want to add, don't be afraid to learn about Deaf culture.

There's so many cool, fun resources, even on TikTok, on Instagram. There's so many cool Deaf influencers. They're starting to come up more and more now. And I wanna see that being exposed more, so.

Michelle (57:39)
Yeah, well, thank you both for coming on today. This has been such an incredible conversation. I'm so excited for people to get to take this all in. And yeah, I think, David, what you were saying earlier about the walls and windows that walls are barriers and Deaf culture and windows are doors are barriers, windows are openings.

that.

David Naert (58:10)
Yeah, like symbols

of symbols of connection and yeah.

Michelle (58:12)
Yeah.

Kelly (58:13)
symbols of connection.

⁓ yes.

Michelle (58:14)
Yeah. So I think that's a good image for people to take home and to reflect on ways that we can create more windows in our lives and ways that we can deepen our communication with other people. I think those are great things to reflect on. And yeah, we'll get some resources from you guys that we can link in the show notes so that...

Kelly (58:37)
Yeah, please.

Michelle (58:40)
people that want to learn more about Deaf culture and people that hear this and are like, okay, I actually need to start learning. They will start learning. Yeah, yeah. Any other rituals that you would take away from it, Kelly?

Kelly (58:48)
Yeah, they'll take the stop. Yes

Mm, again, it's I'm so excited and I'm so glad, John, you mentioned this, the influencers, like even just because, right, we're all scrolling, like just to be able to see that in my feed. Yeah, I mean, I'm probably after this, going to message you and ask for who to follow, because it's it's those things. It's the visibility that you both are bringing up where I want to ritualize like

Michelle (59:14)
Thank you.

Good.

Kelly (59:26)
making sure I'm, you know, stepping into that. So thank you.

Michelle (59:30)
Thank

Yeah.

David Naert (59:33)
Yeah, definitely. I think just a f- I think just a final thought I have personally is like, if you are even- if you've ever said to yourself or to someone, I wish I learned ASL, I wish I knew ASL, I wish I could learn ASL, like, that's fine, that's okay, just- just action that and do it and take the step because it really can change your life. I am-

ASL Interpreter: Akilah (59:35)
Thank you. ⁓

David Naert (1:00:01)
a perfect example of that. So and John is a perfect example of that kind of inspiration. So ⁓ yeah, this conversation has meant a lot and thank you so much to everyone who helps, who helped make it possible today because it's really been beautiful. So yeah.

Michelle (1:00:03)
you

Kelly (1:00:03)
Yeah

you

⁓

Michelle (1:00:21)
Yeah.

Kelly (1:00:21)
it really has.

Michelle (1:00:23)
And maybe a good reflection question for people that are, you know, whether it's ASL or whatever other, you know, language that people are interested in or whatever it is, it's like, is there some discomfort that I'm avoiding by not engaging in this? That might be a good question to think about.

Kelly (1:00:33)
Mm-hmm.

David Naert (1:00:38)
Mm-hmm.

Kelly (1:00:38)
Mmm,

yeah.

David Naert (1:00:44)
I think that's huge. And I think this conversation could go on forever. I think like, anyone has like something they've been... My whole thing, what I try to do in my life and what's really helped me be confident and successful, I think is when I consider starting something or thinking about a goal, you just have to go for it. Because Kelly Michelle, I was watching one of your episodes earlier today.

Michelle (1:00:50)
Yeah.

David Naert (1:01:14)
It was like are we ever gonna be ready for the podcast? Are we ever good? When are we gonna start it? and you guys just you both of you just started the podcast and you're doing it and you're doing it so well and you're doing it successfully and that's just another example of getting uncomfortable and going for it and trying to do something and learn something and and because Yeah, it all really for me at least for me goes back to just

Kelly (1:01:18)
yeah.

David Naert (1:01:42)
taking the leap into something that is uncertain. And yeah, it's it, cause it can, it can, it could fail, but at least you tried and you know, oftentimes it works out if you just keep going. So.

Kelly (1:01:46)
Hmm.

Michelle (1:02:05)
Thank you all, thanks Ritual Fam for joining us. Yeah, this is so exciting and wherever you're at, we hope you're having a magical time. Bye.

Kelly (1:02:07)
⁓ so honored.

Yes. All right. Talk soon.