Michelle:
Welcome to Ritual Sisters, the podcast where your hosts and fellow travelers, Michelle and Kelly, explore the ways that ritual can help you feel better through the ups and downs of life. So let's take a deep breath, and start this journey together.

Michelle:
Well, welcome ritual fam to another episode of the Ritual Sisters Podcast. Today's topic is trauma recovery with special guest Michelle Maikoetter who works with Dr. Bruce Perry in the Neurosequential Network as the Director of Special Projects. Welcome Michelle, we're so excited to have you today!

Michelle M:
Thank you. I'm excited to be here. I've been looking forward to this. Thanks for having me.

Michelle:
Very exciting. So we always start off with asking our guests if you can tell us a little bit about yourself. And then since we're talking about trauma and the Neurosequential Model, if you don't mind sharing just a little bit about what that is, just so that listeners can understand and all that stuff.

Michelle M:
Okay. I'll try not to get too long-winded - just thinking about the journey to getting here is when I went to college, I was going to be a journalism major. In my first year, I didn't like people changing what I wrote. So very quickly I decided I didn't want to go into journalism because I didn't want people telling me what to write. And so I had a really wonderful psychology professor and decided, hey, I'll just go from journalism to psychology. And so I graduated with a Bachelor’s in Psychology, which can't do just a whole, whole lot with.

And so I didn't want to, unfortunately, I didn't want to go straight into an office. I've always been an outdoors person and hiking and camping and that kind of thing. And so I saw a flyer that was for a wilderness program. And so you could go into wilderness programming if you had a bachelor's in psychology. And so I went and did that for six years, got my master's degree to become a counselor, and then went to some more administrative roles.

And ever since then I've gone into residential childcare, domestic violence, sexual assault counseling, juvenile probation, after school with the Boys and Girls Club of America. And so through that degree, through starting out in wilderness programming, I've always worked mainly with children and adolescents and their families, what we used to call at-risk, but those who come from some challenging circumstances where we're trying to strengthen the families and help them during times of vulnerability.

And so this led me to coming to a place called Cal Farley's Boys Ranch, which is a large residential facility outside of Amarillo, Texas. And I came there about 19 years ago now, almost 20 years ago. And that's where I was first introduced to Dr. Bruce Perry's work. So I got there about 2007. And about 2009, we were struggling with some kids. And one of my assignments was to read some books. And one of the books was The Boy Who Was Raised as a Dog.

My job was to kind of give the cliff notes to the whole team and say what I learned from it and those kinds of things. It’s where I first started out learning about his model. And when I talked to my chief operating officer, he said, we need to find out more about this. And at that time it was kind of just starting out and Bruce didn't have a lot of things formalized yet. He says things were pretty formal at that time, but they were pretty loose at that time as far as anything being written down or structured. When we called and they told us the process - you could take six months where you just kind of listened to it, which really, it's just amazing. Now at that time, it was just a conference call, but we got to call in and listen to Dr. Perry staff the case. And he does such a beautiful job of doing psychoeducation as he talks through those cases. And so we did that for about six months, and decided we wanted to get trained in his model.

So in 2010, we started that process. It took us two years, a very intense process to become certified in the Neurosequential Model as a site. So my organization became a certified site. And then I was one of the first, he used to call us fellows when it was called the Child Trauma Academy back then, which then in 2018, we changed to the Neurosequential Model Network. So then I had been working with Bruce and knowing his work for a while, but then about four years ago after he wrote the book with Oprah, What Happened to You?, then he got a lot busier. And so he asked me to just do some contract work for him. And so I've been doing that for about four years where I run some of the study groups, and then I also do trainings when people can't get Bruce, they get me, which I know is a big, you know, big let down. Usually I do an okay job and I'm not Bruce Perry, you know? And so I do some training engagements for him when he can't do them. And then, like I said, help certify people in his model. That wasn't too long-winded. That's how I got here.

Michelle:
That's great. And can you say a little bit more about what exactly the Neurosequential Model is?

Michelle M:
Yes. So originally when we started out, it was just the Neurosequential Model of Therapeutics, which was specifically for masters level mental health professionals. And it's a lens, a model to look at the way we develop, the way our experiences and especially our relationships impact how our brain develops and how that lays down some foundational networks for future abilities to regulate our emotions or contain our emotions in a balanced way to be relational, to be thoughtful. And so really looking at your relational history, your adversity, and to see how that has impacted your behavior now. And so in the Neurosequential Model of Therapeutics, we actually do an assessment where we complete looking at that entire history and then current functioning to come up with a way to sequence interventions that make sense for someone's development. And so instead of saying everyone benefits from the same type of intervention, such as TF-CBT, which is great for certain people at certain times. We actually look at the developmental history and decide how to sequence those interventions in a way that is going to be most successful for the client.

We now have many - we have the Neurosequential Model of Caregiving. We have the Neurosequential Model for Educators. We have the Neurosequential Model of Reflective Supervision, Early Childhood. We have one for coaches. And so we have expanded, but they're all based on the same core concepts or principles of the Neurosequential Model of Therapeutics where we first started out.

Michelle:
I think that's really helpful because you hear a lot as a therapist that clients come in and they've tried so many different methods and some work, some don't. To have a central model that helps to explain that and identify that earlier on so they don't have to just go through trial and error.

Michelle M:
Yes, it does. And that's what happens a lot is they'll say, well, I've already tried that, but it may not have been the right time to try that specific intervention. We support a lot of different interventions at different times. So EMDR, animal assisted therapy, somatosensory therapy, all those kinds of things can play into, you know, the interventions, but in a sequence way so that we're hoping that we build up to the point that it makes sense and is more effective.

Kelly:
Thank you, Michelle. That was so helpful. And I think really important for listeners that, yeah, it might just not have the context. So thank you. We also love to ask our guests what their relationship is like to ritual and ceremony.

Michelle M:
Yeah. So I think when I thought about this, I am much better about ceremony or routine and traditions than I am about rituals. It really made me, especially now, both of my, I have two children and they're grown and out of the house, 20 and 23.

And really reflecting back on ways I could have incorporated rituals a little bit more and how I can do that going forward. And then also with the families and the kids that I work with, I think we do really focus on routine and structure because that's so important. But I think sometimes we forget about the ritual aspect and that piece of intentional, I'm going to say intentional about a thousand times, but intentional ways to connect and to create attachment. Because so often we're in such a kind of survival mode, that we aren't thinking about those specific things. A lot of times we don't feel like we have time for those things, right? And so this really made me think about, I need to do better about being thoughtful about rituals and how to make sure that's something I incorporate with the people that I love.

Michelle:
Yeah, I think that's been a big theme through our podcast is that intentionality and bringing that in and just, even how simple that can be. Like there can be that barrier of it's going to take too much time or, you know, I don't have the thought process for that right now, but it can be so simple.

Michelle M:
Yes, absolutely.

Michelle:
But you said that you connect more with ceremony and tradition. Do you have any favorite ceremonies or traditions that you do or have done?

Michelle M:
I was thinking about, especially when I was younger, I used to watch a soap opera back in the day.

Audible Laugher

And one of the ones they had, I'm not going to say which one it was because it will date me, but one of the ones they did every year at Christmas was they would pull out the ornaments and it was a way to recap what had happened on the show for the past year. So they would pull out the ornament and hold it up and they would focus in on that ornament. And then you'd get this little preview of this is what happened around this person's ornament or whatever. Right. And so I used to think that was such an amazing way to remember certain things. And so one of the things my family does is anytime we go on a vacation together, we get an ornament to symbolize that vacation. When we've had loved ones pass away, our pets, our family members or friends, we get ornaments so that when we bring them out, we always have conversations about that person or that pet or that adventure that we went on. And so it's a way to stay connected to some of those things that were really important to us.

And because it's around Christmas time and I've been thinking about that. That is one of the nice traditions that we have carried on. And then my daughter has gotten really crazy about - we need an ornament for every single thing. We've really had to try to like, what is really, you know, ornament worthy - because you can only have so big of a tree. And so, but she's wanting to pass that on to like her friends and other people. And that's what she's kind of given them. And so that's one of the nice ones that we have actually done.

Kelly:
That's beautiful.

Michelle:
So we're going to dive a little bit more into this topic. The first question that we have for you is what do you wish that people knew about trauma informed care? Like this is a big thing people are starting to understand and talk about. So what do you wish people knew?

Michelle M:
That’s a great question. I wish people knew that it's more than a phrase or kind of a passing, you know, idea of the moment in that it's something that I think is so connected to our shared humanity as far as having grace and understanding for one another. I think anything that helps us understand how we're more similar than dissimilar has an impact. And I think looking at how the brain learns and remembers for all of us - can help us understand why someone who's experienced a certain trauma or abuse or neglect may have different reactions, different capacities, and different moments that if we were in their same shoes, we would also be impacted by that same thing. And so I guess just that we're more similar than we are - than sometimes we like to recognize that we are, and that any one of us who is doing well, there's probably a lot of people we need to thank for that.

Michelle:
Such a good reframe too that it would be so easy to think about trauma-informed care of identifying the differences and how to negotiate differences between people. But I love framing it as, we all have that similarity that we all want to feel safe. We all want to be respected and how we move through the world.

Michelle M:
Yeah, absolutely. That idea, I think sometimes we think someone's reacting a certain way and I would never be that way - when you understand more about how the brain works and more about, again, that kind of historical context of our experiences and relationships - how any one of us, given certain circumstances, could act that same way in that same moment.

Kelly:
That’s such a great point, Michelle, and really honors the importance of showing up in a compassionate and as you mentioned, a grace filled way.

Michelle M:
Yes - and that idea of being curious, right? Instead of critical that in order for me to be curious, I have to be in a safe regulated space to be curious about you. Because if I'm in a dysregulated or fearful state or stressful state, I'm more about me and my survival and I can't really be curious about you.

It just made me think, this morning I was doing my reflective time or whatever and the question was, what are the one or two things that you absolutely need to do every day? And I was like, one or two things. It's like a million things, right? And really what I came down to was like being present and attentive to the people that are in front of me, right? Cause at first I started out, it was people that I love and I'm like, no, it's really anyone that you're in anyone's space that you're with. I mean - that's a lot of work. That's a big task.

Kelly:
Yeah, it really is. So our next question, and I imagine there’s a lot of stories to pull from. So please take your time because you have so much, you know, wonderful experience, what are some stories of trauma resiliency that have inspired you?

Michelle M:
Well, you know, I think what is so hard about that is when I first started this journey, success looked a certain way to me. And now as I've been in this field for over 30 years, and I appreciate you saying experience instead of how old I am, but in 30 years of time, what success looks like is different for everybody.

We had a young man at our facility, rough life. And when he was with us, functioned very well. So you can imagine when you have a lot of structure and you have a lot of routine and you have a lot of consistency and predictability and then caring adults who are actively trying to support you in your journey, you can function pretty well. Of course, that transition for any one of us from adolescence into young adulthood is such a hard road, especially when you've had difficulties in your past. And so, when he left us, he had some big ideas about where he wanted to go and what he wanted to do, but a lot of it had to do with moving away from the people who supported him in that community because, you know, all of us, you turn 18, you don't want to be told what to do anymore. You don't want to follow the rules. You want to make your own decisions. But then we know how difficult that is without relational support around you.

And so he went and he tried some things that didn't work out for him. And he called and said, I'm here in the middle of this place. I don't have anywhere to go or anyone to help me. And he called us. And so we sent him a bus ticket to get him back to where we were. And he struggled a lot. He had some other big traumatic events. So he could function pretty well at baseline level. And then he had some pretty major traumatic events in his adult life that set him back quite a bit. And so during that time, his ability to be in relationship with us would come in and out of what he could tolerate that he felt safe with. Sometimes he felt very paranoid. He felt like we were trying to harm him or we were trying to do things that weren't helpful to him.

What we learned as a team during that whole journey was this idea of being here when people need us in the way that they need us and how that changes moment by moment. And so we were really wanting him to look a certain way and act a certain way for us to feel like we were doing good jobs - instead of realizing when someone asks you for help, that's a big deal, right? To have that kind of vulnerability and that kind of trust that someone will actually help you is a lot. And that what I think of as help and what you need from me might be two different things. And again, it's that idea of being present and open to what that person needs instead of what makes me feel better, which I think is really, really hard and is such a struggle in this work. There's so many check boxes and so many things we want to say we took care of or we did that isn't actually beneficial to the person who needs the help. And so saying that, just saying that, that doesn't sound like we did much, right? That doesn't sound like he's a superstar somewhere. He's still in the struggle, but he's still in the struggle with us, not on his own. And so he really was a big reason why I shifted my idea of what is success and what does it look like. And it's different with everyone.

Michelle:
That's so relatable. I feel like that's important to hear, but I feel like especially people coming into the field, you go in with such an expectation. And it's really different from a lot of fields where there is like an input-output kind of productivity marker. And our field is just so different, but then the systems that we work under still kind of have those markers. So it's such a challenge to navigate.

Michelle M:
It is, it is. And in my most stressed moments, I always say I would like to be a UPS driver because in the morning I have a full truck and at the end of the day it's completely empty and I can say I did something and this work is not like that at all. This work is always two steps forward, three steps back, you know, all the time and doing the best that you can do in the given moment. And so, yeah. And I do think it, just like you're saying, so many of our systems that we work in have to have those check boxes. And I think we can get really caught up in those check boxes and get really upset when we're not able to check them, you know, or think that's all we need to do.

And so, so much of what we talk about in that presence, right, that present in an attuned place that you come from is that sometimes people, or a lot of times actually, people are so stressed and overwhelmed. They just need you to be in it with them, not, you know, educate them, not tell them what to do - not one more thing to do - like we've done that with self-care. We've turned self-care into this like punishment. Like one more thing you're not doing well is your self-care, you know? And so, and so much of this work is about being in the mess and not making it worse. Not necessarily fixing it, but being in it. And that's, that's really hard, especially when you first come into the field and you have an idea of this - all these things that you're going to do day to day.

Kelly:
I love that phrase, Michelle. Yeah, be in it with them. I'm going to be repeating that to myself. Thank you for sharing that.

Michelle:
So one of the things we also wanted to know about was we talk a lot on the podcast about transitions - dealing with life change. And you kind of mentioned the transition of adolescents to young adulthood. What do you feel like are some of the unique challenges for people that have experienced trauma in terms of transitions and even like celebrations of life markers?

Michelle M:
Yeah. So, gosh, so many things come to mind. Just this week I was staffing a client with a therapist and so many of our systems, once you start doing well, you move to a different system, right? And so we build relationships and some security and some consistency. And then we say, okay, now you need to go here and do that all over again. And so every time we do that, it's very, you know, very unsettling and also causes regression.

But it's awesome when we think about the relational aspect, any one of us, you can't just keep experiencing relational loss over and over and over again without relational continuity. So we really, again, reflective of not really understanding developmentally and then our neurobiology of being social and in relationship, how damaging some of those processes are. And then we have these timeframes, right? About when, how long kids can be or clients can be in certain services before they get moved to a different one without being able to respect the differences of the individual. And so then sometimes that means we move them into something they're not gonna be successful at, which causes them to come back in at a lower area of the system. So all in good, like I think it's all good intent, right? I mean, our systems are overwhelmed and they're under resourced and they're all created of people that are trying to do their best, that want to help, but so many parameters because what we really need is that ability to be flexible and autonomous and for each individual, which everybody is going to look so different about what that need is and then how we can accomplish that.

And then when I think about some of the things like ceremonies or traditions or like going into the holidays. You know, when we talk about, it's really hard to take perspective because we kind of all have this default that your background is like my background. Like what I find enjoyable, you'll find it enjoyable. What I don't like, you won't like, right? Because that's just, that's just kind of how we look at things. And when we have negative experiences or traumatic experiences around holidays, around birthdays, around gift-giving, those kinds of things - we sometimes don't appreciate how much stress and overwhelm that can cause.

And also this expectation, this pressure of expectation, right? And I think we all feel that, you know, we can really build up so many things to have an unrealistic pressure about what it's going to be or how it's going to be. And then if you have an idea that birthdays are this beautiful time of families being together and getting gifts, but in your past, that's not what you've experienced on your birthday, you have dread, you have fear, you have maybe shame and guilt surrounding it. And so it's a mismatch of what your expectation is and what the experience is.

One of the things I'm so fascinated by is how much the brain likes to be able to predict things, to be able to expect what's going to happen, which is even true when you expect something not so great or you predict something's not going to be so great. When it doesn't match up, it's still a little bit of a stress or a big stress to our brain because it didn't calculate it correctly. And so I think that's so hard to understand sometimes that even things that we think are positive can be upsetting to someone or can overwhelm them. And then we get in our kind of like, we were just talking about, get into our, did all this work and this was such a beautiful thing and you responded like this, and then we get hurt. And so it is this really interesting thing about trying to, again, I think trying to be attuned with what is important or feels good to someone might be totally different than what your expectation of that is.

Michelle:
I also have a play therapy credential. And one of the things that they talk about is a lot of play therapists don't ask questions ever, basically. And one of the reasons behind that is a question is a demand on the person. Anytime you're asking a question - you're basically giving them a command to respond. So that also kind of made me think about that, like how much we have put on our shoulders like those expectations and that a ceremony could feel like a demand for somebody which can kind of trigger that response too.

Michelle M:
Yeah, I think that kind of demand for performance almost right. And so I think that's the other really interesting piece of what you're talking about - trying to help in a way that creates trust instead of asking someone to perform, which means that you have to be able to be honest with me about if it's different than what I think it's going to be, which is really hard, right? And just like what you were saying in play therapy is like, that's also why I couldn't be a play therapist. I can't be quiet. It was really hard. Like I always thought play therapy was the thing and I could not do it well because I talked too much. But it's that same idea whatever question you pose is going to have some of your own idea of what that should be right or how that or how you should be interpreting that or how that should look to you or whatever. And so yeah, I think all those things are so interesting.

Kelly:
Well, this truly is one of my favorite sections as we get to explore rituals and how it relates to today's topic. So Michelle, what would you say are some rituals that can help ease anxiety when someone is in the spotlight or being noticed?

Michelle M:
Wow. So I think that would depend on that person, right? And the first thing I thought of was who is their co-regulator? Who is the person that helps them feel calm and soothed? And, you know, we all have those people, you guys are probably that for each other. I just did a series, a new series, and I had co-discussants and they said, well, what's my role? And I said, honestly, your role is to make me feel better. So that I could do my job, right? Because if I was just here by myself, I would forget how to use Zoom and I wouldn't, you know, I wouldn't be able to joke around as much and that kind of thing. So my first thought is who was that person who provides you comfort - that when you see them, you automatically, and hopefully, you know, we all have at least one, but that brings your heart rate down. That makes you go, it's going to be okay. It's the same way I've had coworkers who, when I knew they were going to be at work, I felt that we could take care of everything. Right. But when they weren't there, I felt their absence because I felt like, I don't know if I can do it without them. And so that would be my first thought is who's that co-regulator, which is not a great term, right? It's not, it's a lot like you're, you know, you're a wingman or you're that kind of thing, but it's who's going to soothe you and that makes you feel like you can do whatever's in front of you.

Kelly:
That's really lovely. I think that will help so many people. And even last night we had a book club celebration and I was feeling so bad. I was running late, per usual, but someone got out of their car so I could walk into the house with someone. It was so simple, but being able to walk in the house with a friend and be like, okay, I'm not the only one running late, felt so good to my nervous system.

Michelle M:
Yeah, that is huge, right? If that wouldn't have happened to you, I don't know if you would have even identified that as being something that was important, right? But that piece of - I'm not alone. Like, yeah, and it's okay, I can walk in, someone else is late and we can walk in together and then it's totally fine, which it feels totally different than when it's just you on your own feeling like the novelty, you know, walking in by yourself.

Michelle:
And I wonder if it might be helpful to also provide some context around the question too of what is the impact of trauma and I guess our attachment or development on how that feels when we go into those situations where we're being perceived.

Michelle M:
So I think, you know, a big piece of this is you can have a traumatic event. We're all going to experience traumatic events at different times in our lives. But I think when you've had developmental trauma or sometimes what we call complex trauma is when there has been relational impairments or abuse and neglect within the caregiving environment usually. So the people that are supposed to take care of you, there has been something that has gotten in the way of that overwhelming stress, maybe addiction, those kinds of things.

So thinking again, it's a little bit different than not just because a traumatic event is just, right? But the separateness of a single incident versus this kind of long-term developmental impact of having something disrupt your caregiver being able to soothe you. And so that is one of the biggest challenges is when you haven't had someone who's been present, attentive, attuned, and responsive to your needs for a variety of reasons - some of them I mentioned - is that your own nervous system isn't able to be regulated by that person. And so for especially children and young infants, if that caregiver is not able to calm that nervous system down, then it stays at a stressed state and we call it sensitized, but it becomes very overly reactive, overly responsive to demand, to transition, to change, to novelty. Special novelty can really stress this out again, because your brain can't predict what to do or what's going to happen.

And so when you haven't had that co-regulator, it'd start out really external regulation. When you're a baby, you can't regulate yourself at all. Your caregiver has to regulate you. And then it becomes co-regulation as you move through that sequence where I can help you become regulated to the point that then you can self-regulate. So that's the developmental sequence of that. When you've missed any of those sequences or those developmental stages, you can't just automatically self-regulate or self-soothe or self-calm. And so sometimes we expect people to be able to do things when they have not gone through those developmental steps to get to that point yet. We have to go back through that sequence in order to get there. And so I think that is one of the things if you have not had a background that other people are calming and soothing and safe, then when you're exposed to new people, new places and new situations, your stress response to some stays on that high alert because people are not calming for you. They're not safe for you. They're not regulating for you.

Some of the mistakes that we make are with parties and we change social environments, right? Like one of the things that really upsets us is when you change, even if you move furniture or you change the way something looks, that it doesn't, it's not as predictable as we thought it was gonna be. And so you think about just birthdays and holidays, how we do those things to make things look nice, but the whole environment can look different. And so even that can cause a little bit more stress response to come in, more people coming into our environment - having a certain expectation, like, you we're going to watch you open your presents to see what that's like for you. So then there's this expectation of a certain reaction that can feel really unsafe and really overwhelming that I'm going to disappoint you no matter what. And so, you know, I've told the story before, but about a girl that I had that she would hide in her room while everybody opened presents and she would open them by herself when nobody was around because she felt like she was going to disappoint people and they were going be upset with her if she didn't respond.

And so again, is that wanting to build that trust that however you react, and this is hard, right? With my own kids, it's hard. I bought my kids Taylor Swift tickets back in the day before she was Taylor Swift, but she was still pretty popular. And I thought they were going to be so excited and they opened them and they were like, do we have to go? And I was going, and now I would have sold them, but now at least I would have gone without them. But any way, that giving them permission to react the way that they feel instead of perform for me in a way that says, I know you want me to be excited about this - so I have to be excited about this. That's hard. That's really hard. And so when you think about that with kind of all the other complexities thrown in there of having a challenging childhood of maybe being an adoptive parent or a foster parent or a kinship parent who is trying to do all these things, make up for some things that maybe they feel like a child has missed out on, and then not having the response that you expect. And not, and taking it very personal, right? It's really hard to not take those things personally instead of understanding how that's coming through a filter - these negative experiences and not feeling safe and not feeling secure that I can be who I am and that you're going to accept me for that.

Michelle:
That's huge. Yeah.

Kelly:
Yeah, I'm so glad we took more time to expand on that. Really nice.

Michelle:
So then I guess going back to the question of getting more comfortable with being seen. So you talked about co-regulation - that would be for people who have hit that developmental stage. What if they're not quite there? What would be helpful for them?

Michelle M:
It’s the same kind of thing we call, we say dosing a lot in the network, but where small doses of certain things, right? So you can build tolerance just like running, right? If you wanted to go out and run a marathon, if you went out and tried to run it the first day, you know, I'd probably pass out or probably pull something, you know, those kinds of things. But if I go through a predictable controllable plan, I could build up my resilience to be able to do a marathon, right? And this is that same, we understand that when it comes to exercise and kind of physical challenges, but it's the same way with emotional challenges and social challenges that we can have doses of stress that are moderate and controllable.

Like this is stress, right? Being on a podcast is stressful, it's moderate and controllable. You guys have tried to give me as much information as you could, right? And so, as I do more of these, as I've done more speaking engagements, I've had those doses of moderate, controllable stress to where I can manage it in a way that hopefully I can, you know, be productive and say the things I wanna say. But it's the same kind of thing with those stressors that there needs to be some predictability, some controllability, some moderation to it.

We do this with the younger kids but then we kind of forget about it as we get older, like trying to say, “this is what's gonna happen. This is when it's gonna happen. This is how it's gonna happen.” If you ever get to a point where it's too much, maybe you have a code word or maybe you wave at me or maybe you do something that you might not be able to access your words, but we know that you've had too much and then we can go back and we can go do something else where it's just one-on-one. Maybe we go outside and take a walk or we go listen to music or we swing together or we, you know, do something regulating. So something that's rhythmic, repetitive, and patterned is the way that we can regulate from the bottom up. Just like we do with younger children, where we rock them and sing to them and those kinds of things. We need those same kinds of things to help us be regulated. And so really being as predictable and consistent. And then when we can't, trying to give an out for when it's too much for you so that you don't have to have a big meltdown or all these kinds of things for me to understand what's going on. But so much of it is exactly like what you guys have done with me - is trying to say, this is what it's going to look like. These are the things that we're going to do. This is what you need to know about so that I feel secure in what's going to happen.

And we forget about that, as adults, because we have control of things, right? We have the car keys, we have the debit card, we know when we're going to stop and eat. But for kids, it's all a big mystery about what's going to happen because they're not in control of it. And so we often just don't think to tell them when our plans change or when there's a revision to something, because to us, it's not upsetting. But for kiddos who are already trying so hard to stay regulated and then we throw something novel or a transition or a change at them, it can be really overwhelming.So trying as much as possible to make it predictable and consistent and then giving them some control over what is manageable for them instead of what we want them to be able to manage, which is totally different, right? So allowing that, what you can handle is okay and it doesn't have to live up to what I think you should be able to handle.

Michelle:
Yeah, I think it's so easy as adults to let things go unsaid or assume that somebody knows what you're going to do or how it's going to look. But yeah, we've definitely found that with the podcast that it's like the more that you can just be like, okay, here's the steps. Yes, that seems to help a lot.

Michelle M:
Yes, absolutely.

Michelle:
So one of the questions we have, which you've kind of mentioned a little bit about, you know, like the rhythm and repetitions, but if somebody wanted to do rituals that kind of mapped different brain regions, what would that look like based on which brain region they're trying to target? Does that make sense?

Michelle M:
It’s hard to say that because all the regions work together. None of them are separate from one another independent from one another. But I think the way we talk about the brain developing is from the bottom to the top. And so we talk about how do we engage in talking to someone or, interventions in that same kind of way. So thinking from kind of the lowest, most primitive area. So if you just think about a baby again - how do you regulate a baby? How do you soothe a baby? And it's through those rhythmic, repetitive patterns. And then some somatosensory kind of things - providing warmth, providing touch, providing smells and sounds and those kinds of things. And so we need those same kinds of things to be regulated from the bottom up so that it's a more direct way than using your cognitive abilities, which we often think that we're only cognitive, right? That that's the only thing that exists is our frontal cortex instead of all these other areas of our brain that have to do with emotions and relationships and somatosensory, which is sensory information. And so from the bottom up being that somatosensory kind of things and to those relational kind of things, and then those reflective or reasoning kind of things where you can talk.

And so if you were able to do things that were somewhat, somatosensory or physical in nature, so if you think about how things smell, how things sound, what the lighting situation is. And then what is the relational piece that can be brought into there? And then once those things are established, then what's the reflective piece or the thoughtful piece that can go into that? And that might be like, what's going to happen tomorrow? Here's the schedule for tomorrow. And so when I think about that, it would be all of those sensory awareness kind of things - like if you're getting ready for bedtime, what that needs to look like, what's the relational piece going to look like? And then what is the cognitive piece or thoughtful piece about what's going to happen tomorrow.

That’s what I would be thinking about whenever I put my own kids to bed. It was about the certain routine or procedures that get us ready for bed, slowing everything down. Everything gets a little bit less bright, right? Everything needs to be a little bit calmer, less noise, less active, those kinds of things. Doing something where - read a book together or listen to some music together that's relational and then talking about if there is anything that you need to know for tomorrow or those kinds of things. And then that ritual aspect is something that connects us, right? I did a bible study once and the thought of “you are my beloved with you I'm well pleased.” I thought, how amazing would that be if someone told you that all the time? And so that was how I would close out with my kids. I would say, “you are my beloved” and they would respond back. That call and response “with you I'm well pleased.” And I would answer “always.”

Right. And so even now, as my kids are out of the house, I'll send them a text or I'll say something to them. And that's what their response will be because it's that ritual of attachment and connection with them. And so combining all those things, it doesn't have to be all those things, right. But if you were able to put those things together kind of in that developmental sequence of how we process things, that's what I would go.

Michelle:
Like you were saying with that, we get into this - as we age, we get into this cognitive mindset. So even just thinking about adding in those little elements, like what if I did like a hand to my heart? What if I had, like Kelly, I saw you doing your little essential oil roller before we got on. What if I had a purple light bulb or whatever it is, just trying that. But I also think something you hear a lot with clients as I tried that didn't work. And it goes back to that repetition that if you stick with something and you repeat it over and over and over again, that's how you kind of get into those layers of your brain that are not as cognitive that can't just snap and get it.

Michelle M:
Yes, absolutely.

Michelle:
Well, this has been a lovely conversation. We hope that you all enjoyed it, and we will be continuing with some fun questions with Michelle for the Patreon. So if you are a member, stick around and if not, you can head over to our Patreon to hear more. Otherwise, wherever you're at, whatever you're doing, we hope you have a magical time. Goodbye.

Kelly:
Alright, bye everyone!