Welcome to Ritual Sisters, the podcast where your hosts and fellow travelers, Michelle and Kelly, explore the ways that ritual can help you feel better through the ups and downs of life. So let's take a deep breath and start this journey together.

Well, hello everyone. We are back at it on Ritual Sisters podcast and we are just so grateful to have the special guest here with us today. And so I wanna start by introducing Madison Rose, who is a somatic practitioner. And the founder of Better Half to Whole, a platform dedicated to supporting individuals through divorce, recovery, and the renegotiation of relational trauma in the nervous system.

Madison has a deep belief in the power of human connection and creative expression that shapes her work. Today, Madison is passionate about building community, supporting women, children, and families, and bridging the space between science and the sacred. Welcome Madison. Um, thank you. I'm so happy to be here.

Oh. We are so, so grateful to have you here. Yeah. So let's get started. Just, um, if you can tell us a little bit about yourself and your company better, half to whole, and then we also ask everyone about what season of life you're in. So if you wanna bring that into sharing about who you are. Yeah, better.

Half to Whole is a company that I started a couple of years ago, and it really came out of my experience going through divorce and finding. Or rather not finding resources that I needed that were specific to living as a divorced person. I really didn't find anything that could support me in the social and emotional side and practical side of life.

That was beyond working with a therapist like I needed help with. Holidays and changes to my family dynamics and how to talk about my situation, which I, I had a hard time finding any practical resources. So that's really where Better Half to whole came from was. Resources that would speak to the kind of unseen and un unnoticed parts of the divorce experience?

Yeah. Um, I definitely saw a therapist and did like all the things you're supposed to do in healing and recovering after any kind of loss. Um, so, but that's really where better half to whole came from was wanting to provide the resources that I wish I would have had during. My really years of separation and then the, the divorce aftermath.

I would say I'm in a really interesting season of my life. Ooh, Uhhuh. So a couple of years ago, I was supposed to go on a year long international trip with a former partner, and I had quit my job. I had stopped taking. Bookings for weddings. 'cause I used to do weddings and had left every volunteer role in the community.

And then we broke up a month before my last day at my job. Wow. So I, wow. That was such crazy timing. Crazy timing. So I, we had planned this big trip. I'd saved all this money. I had literally shut my life down in Colorado to prepare to leave. And then we broke up. And so I call it the great clearing of my life.

I love that phrase. Yeah. The great clearing. Yeah. A radical clearing. Radical clearing. Um, and then I, so I had, I sold most of my stuff. I moved in with a friend for a few months. I finished out my job and then I left the country and I was gone for six months. I still traveled. And then I came back and I am long-term house sitting right now for some friend's parents, so I feel like I'm in this really interesting season where.

A lot of the structures of a like typical life are very much in flux for me. I don't own a car, I don't own a house. I'm long-term house sitting and also building a business and a platform and a community. And so I'm in this, it feels like a baby season, like everything feels. Pretty new and I feel like I'm just starting to get my, my footing in collaborations and partnerships and podcasts and really my message.

So I feel like I'm really at the beginning of a pretty significant career change. Mm-hmm. Total career change. Yeah. And Madison, what were you doing for the wedding industry? So I coordinated weddings as a side hustle for 12 years. Okay. Yeah, so this is a big transition time. Big transition time. And then I also had a full-time role as a fundraiser for a nonprofit.

So I, I left that job, stopped taking wedding bookings, and then left the country. And now here I am. I'm back for who knows how long. Yeah. But I think that is so special that you saw a need. The community and you're working on building that. I think that's very aligned with what we are trying to do with Ritual Sisters as well, that in the therapy world, it does feel so isolated and it, it, there's a, a need for that and it's important to have that one-on-one time, but you really do need the community too.

It needs to be happening outside of the therapy space as well. Yeah, absolutely. I totally agree with that, Michelle. Madison. One other thing we love to start with with our guests is just what does your relationship look like to ritual and ceremony? I've been thinking a lot about this, and I don't have daily rituals.

Mm-hmm. But I have more like ritual and ceremony around beginnings and endings of seasons of my life or relationships. Yeah. So I don't really have a. Daily practice. Mm-hmm. But more so like how to mark an ending or a, or a beginning. So one example I, mm-hmm. When my ex-partner and I broke up, he wrote me all these little notes and I went with my brother to the place where my ex and I had had our first kiss, and I burned them all.

I read them, I cried, and I burned them to really like release and let go. And so I, I love ceremony and ritual, and they're more for, I think, releasing and then also starting things. I think Kelly and I have kind of talked about this. I, I lean more in your direction, Madison. Yes. I like that one off. Like, okay, something happened.

How do I process this? And Kelly's a little bit more of like the. Daily ritual. Mm-hmm. I think that's what's great about ritual is it can be whatever fits best for you and you know, how you process. Yeah. And how powerful that burning ceremony sounds. Madison. Yeah. Michelle and I love having fire nights and Right.

With a lot of intention. And did you say, did your brother go with you to support you in that? Yeah. It was so sad. But also very like, very cathartic. Be like, I'm gonna receive all of these notes and then I'm gonna let 'em go. I think it's so huge for listeners too, to hear, I think sometimes, right? We think of ritual and we might think it is more of a solo activity.

And I love that your brother was there and it is a good reminder that right, we can share these experiences with others and it can make them that much more rich. Yeah. I think especially in that time when it was specific to the end of a relationship. Mm-hmm. I didn't want to be alone. Yeah. But I also didn't wanna be with all of my best friends.

I just needed like one witness and my brother said yes to being there with me, and I'm really grateful to have had. I have had him there with me and it's was very vulnerable to ask, but he said yes, and I'm really gra I'm really glad. Speaks to yeah, y'all's relationship truly.

Madison, the first question we have for you on this topic is how you feel that relationships, not the relationship of the marriage, but all the outside relationships in somebody's life shift and change after divorce. I think when you get divorced, it shifts every relationship. Um, especially if you've had a couple friends or you're integrated into each other's families, and it is really a cascade of loss.

Of relationships and not just in the current moment, but also grieving the future of those relationships shifting and changing, especially in friendships. I think it can be really challenging for the people who are around you to know what to do, what to say, what's allowed, are they prying? Are they checking on you?

And so it just shifts the whole. At least for me, it shifted my entire social experience. My ex-husband and I had been kind of the hub for a lot of our community. Wow. So we hosted a lot interest. That's a, I think that's an important thing to note. So you guys were Yeah. The center of a lot of that. We hosted people's birthday parties and going away parties, and we had people over on the weekends.

And so when we split there wasn't the same like. Host in our friend group. And so our, at least for me, it felt like kind of my whole community just sort of dissolved and I would have one-off relationships with, with different people and some couples I stayed friends with, some couples and friends stayed connected with my ex-husband.

So it was kind of this fracturing of friendships, very powerful language, that cascade of loss. Mm-hmm. Yeah, and there are things that you don't necessarily think about in the moment, which can be, I think, really difficult for people as they are going through the post-divorce recovery and healing process because things will continue to come up.

Over time be like, oh, right. I don't get to go to that annual 4th of July party anymore, or Oh, right. We're not gonna go to that Christmas concert with grandma. And so it comes up, I think, especially around like significant dates and holidays, that it just becomes really obvious if you're sad and grieving and maybe not as obvious if the divorce was something that you celebrated.

Mm-hmm. Hmm. Yeah. Was there anything, Madison, I'm glad you're speaking to that, of the, like the things in the future that maybe you were looking forward to that No, no longer could happen. Were there Yeah. Words that people said to you or even people acknowledging that, I guess, what helped in that grief journey for you?

Yeah. I had some very dedicated. People in my life, I had my brother and my sister-in-law who were like really with me, especially around significant dates and holidays, even though I was sad they were with me and I wasn't alone. Hmm. Um. Then I had one incredibly dedicated friend who had moved out of the country, but she and I Skyped for an hour once a week and she, I know.

Wow, that's beautiful. And she was just with me and I learned a lot about friendship and being with people. For the long haul and she thought, yeah, I just am amazed at the dedication of, of that friend, and that was really helpful to know that I could just be however I was and I didn't have to perform for her or soften my grief or sadness, which is a huge gift.

I am curious, and I don't know if. You have an answer. 'cause I don't know necessarily if you've experienced other types of grief, but I'm imagining that that is so helpful because sometimes people might not think of divorce as a grief in the same way that they think about if you had, if you know your spouse had died, that they might respond differently.

Do you have any sense of like the difference of how people respond to the grief of a divorce versus the grief of a death? Such an interesting question and what's coming up is that when someone passes, there's not necessarily any blame that comes up, but when someone divorces, everyone kind of wants an explanation of what happened and who did what and, and so that is a little bit of a different.

Dynamic. Um, and I would say too, it's, it's similar, I think of any, any kind of loss. There is a flood at the very beginning, like immediately following the ending or the loss of, of any type of grief. You know, the meal trains or people you know are supporting you or calling you. But then six months later.

Everyone's moved on with their life for the most part, and you're still in the like, daily process of moving through what is now lost or over. Yeah. That whole process of things shift over time, but also I think that piece of finding, trying to find the blame or trying to understand what happened that's, that's unique to this type of loss.

Mm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, great question, Michelle. That was, yeah, that was thought provoking. Yeah. Madison, you know, I'm thinking about, yeah, the kind of this interesting difference between you, you were going to see a therapist and yet it was like, man, I need. Other supports I need. Right. A sense of community. And so I'm curious for you, what advice that you give people that are going through a divorce, whether that's in your group spaces or in your courses.

Yeah. What advice do you give? I'd say at the very beginning when someone is in the, in the blurry parts. Mm-hmm. To put in some structure. Around your social life. So having one friend that you ask to check on you like every couple of weeks, and you may not reply, but just having in the back of your mind, like I know someone is tracking with me.

Hmm. And if they, hopefully they say yes, you know, most friends, most friends would, and then having like a standing monthly. Get together with one person if it's coffee on the first Saturday of the month, because by the time you think like, gosh, I could really use a friend, especially as we get older and have mm-hmm.

Careers and families, our schedules just get pretty packed. Oh. And so having get so packed. Yes. Yeah. So having a standing. Scheduled event or coffee or lunch on the calendar can provide a lot of stability because you know, like, okay, I'm gonna see them in 10 days, or I know I'm gonna see this person on Saturday and I can make it until then if you don't have other social outlets.

So having some structure around friendship. And then I have a free mini course called Divorced Now What? And it is really about. Very basic structure and getting some rhythms into your life so that you do have a sense of progress. And it's se simple things like pick one of these to focus on each day.

Drink water, eat something, wash your face. Getting that the, those basics in. Into your rhythm. And then also picking one thing each week that you're gonna do consistently. Even if it's going on Tuesdays, you walk after lunch or you go to yoga on Thursdays. But having something preset because things are so blurry in time in this like time warp, having something already in your schedule.

At least for me, and I've heard from others too, that it helps to have kind of a mile marker. Mm-hmm. In your healing process to be like, okay, I'm here again. It's Thursday again, and I've made it through another week. And then there's one, it's kind of fun. Oh, okay. We like fun. We love fun. I started, I was so sad after my divorce and, and I felt a little weird about being so sad for so long, but I needed some kind of bright spot in my week, and so I started going and having Mochas on Fridays.

And I started calling it Mocha Friday, and I would go to the same coffee shop on Fridays. I would always get this little mocha and the staff actually started saying like, you're here for Mocha Friday. And I was like, yes, I'm, and so if there, it doesn't have to be coffee, but finding something that you're already doing and making it like a little bit.

Special so that it becomes something you can look forward to. And it doesn't have to be like, I go to the beach on a girls trip once a month. Mm-hmm. Which would be awesome. But having something in your, in your life on a consistent basis that is just like a little bit more special when you. Are having a hard time in other areas.

Wow. Well, I'm really struck Madison by the weaving of ritual in your answer and the Mocha Fridays. Like what? What a special ritual, I imagine. Yeah. Just the joy that brought you to know. Okay. I have something to look forward to every week. I think that is, you know, things that I've heard too with clients going through a divorce is like feeling like, how do I put my life back together again?

Like where, how do I go forward? So I think that is so helpful just to think about. Mm-hmm. Here's like a couple little structure things that you can put into your life that help it feel more manageable and to have that sense of progress. Because I think when you are grieving time. Feels so weird. I experienced and have had clients experience this feeling of like, when is this gonna be over?

Mm. Like, how long is this gonna take? And so having, having some kind of weekly ritual or plan or something scheduled can help you feel like, oh, time is passing and this isn't going to take forever. Even though it feels, it can feel really intense. Yeah. I also love to, and it kind of goes back to again, with your brother, really balancing out right, the time spent by yourself.

In those right ritual moments, but then also like the Skype date with your friend. So knowing in what spaces do you wanna include more of that social element in what other spaces does it feel more internal? And I, I think that's true for all of us to kind of sift out when we wanna be with someone and when we really need to be by ourselves.

I know I am. That is like a theme right now for me going into the fall is I'm trying to figure out. How can I carve out more time and space where it's just me? I know you don't know me super well, Madison, but I am a super social butterfly and I, I think it is a strength, but then it means less time for me.

So yeah. Thanks for sharing those examples. And then we also wanted to know if you've experienced any positives, or maybe you've seen this with clients, like maybe once you kind of get through the, the hump of grief, are there things that have. Improved in your life in some way or or things that are you're happy about?

Oh, for sure. There are so many things that I have done or been able to experience that would've never happened had I stayed married. It is weird to be grateful for something that was so painful, but I feel like divorce made me such a, a much more compassionate person and also. I had to learn how to be more vulnerable with my needs and also desires that I got to learn in another relationship after my divorce.

And I just don't think that that would have happened in my first marriage. He wasn't a super big fan of traveling, and I would have to count up the times, but I have probably been. To Mexico 10 times since we got divorced. Wow. And I've also been to Peru. I've been to Canada. Um, I was able to travel and go all of these places that yes, I did end up going by myself mostly, but I, I would've never done that.

I can't imagine doing that with my ex-husband. Mm-hmm. And, and then I, I entered into like the healing space, which I don't know if I would have been open to looking at things in my childhood that affected how I was in relationship as an adult, or how I showed up as a friend, or, you know, this shake up of my life and then deciding like, well, what.

What do I want now? Because this shared vision that I had with my former partner is not a shared vision anymore. And so that has been awesome. And I also run singles meetups now, which has been a blast, I think after divorce. I mean, I got divorced in 2018, so it's been some years. I just feel like I have come into my own in a different way.

That I, I don't know if I would have, if I would've been married. I'm really hearing that waking up to your internal voice more, that when you're in a partnership, you do create a shared vision, which is beautiful, but sometimes you can lose sight of your own vision for yourself and that you've really been able to tap into that.

That is beautiful.

Alright, Madison, well, we are heading into the ritual section portion of the podcast, so excited to pick your brain some more. I'm curious, how can people tap into their intuition, around their relationship and recognize what's going well versus what needs to change? I love this question from a somatic lens.

Mm-hmm. I would say pay attention to when something shifts in your body in the relationship or in an experience in the relationship. If you feel a tightening in your throat and you feel like, oh, I can't say. The thing I wanna say or express how I'm feeling. Or if something happens and maybe your heart rate goes up a little bit or something in the relationship you really don't wanna talk about, or you're concerned about how your partner is gonna respond.

Paying attention to what's happening in the body takes an awareness and then checking in and saying, what do I need right now? What do I want right now? And for people who don't have much practice doing that, it might take some really intentional noticing. Yeah. Of what's happening when you are triggered and what's happening.

Also, on the flip side, when you feel really connected or feel like really happy or free or at peace in the relationship, noticing what is happening right now that's creating this. This feeling or this sensation or response in my body on the whole spectrum, I would say for me, mm-hmm. There have been times in relationships where I knew something, like I knew the relationship wasn't going to last, or I knew something was going on that we weren't talking about and I ignored it, and then things came up later that were maybe.

That I knew, like it was clear that I knew, I knew then and had ignored my own intuition and my own knowing. And so I, I don't remember who said this, but your intuition is like a butterfly that kind of flits in and flits out and having to. Notice it and be going. Be present enough that you can notice when those little pings come up and slowing down enough that you can notice what's happening in your body and when you might get a little.

Like ding, ding, ding. Something's happening here. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Oh, I love that image of the butterfly. I haven't heard that before. I love that. I think that's very relatable, that sometimes we are pinged into something, but in our intuition, but we're not ready to hear it yet. And I think that is. It's not necessarily something that, you know, to say like, oh, you, you should always listen to your intuition and like, shame on you if you don't.

It's like sometimes it is really hard when that hard truth kind of flips in and then Yeah. You might not wanna sit with it. Yeah. And you're like, you come back later. Mm-hmm. Wow. But I with with intuition too, I think that there are so many lessons, I think on both sides. Like when you do listen to your intuition and then when you don't.

Things come up. Mm-hmm. And maybe you'll notice differently next time, or you'll choose to pay attention a little closer next time. And that's, I think, where self-trust comes in also, is learning how to pay attention to your yourself and your own knowing. Because at least for me, there were a lot of times when it's like.

Don't trust yourself, trust what's outside of you. And so that I think is a whole process of allowing ourselves to trust ourselves and to trust our intuition, and just that taking space, making sure that applies broadly throughout our lives. But with relationships too. Giving yourself space to pause and check in.

Like, what am I even noticing in this relationship right now? Mm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I'm so glad you spoke to the somatic aspect too. Medicine, like truly that, and maybe for people they could practice that with you. Maybe a relationship that feels really safe, or maybe one that isn't super rocky, right? Because that can be intense, but kind of practice this.

Yeah. Hmm. Thank you for sharing that. Yeah. One thing that I've learned in my training is it's called a somatic check-in. Mm-hmm. And this could also be a ritual or as someone is like starting to pay attention to do it at the same time, three times a day, like morning, noon, and night, and to document. If you can, mm-hmm.

Um, say it's at like nine o'clock at lunch and at six o'clock, and you stop and you just notice what's happening in your body and then documenting what's happening at that time. So are you rushing out the door? Are you relaxed and sitting at lunch? Are you like unwinding after work? And that will help you to get a better understanding or awareness of how your body.

Is responding to what's happening throughout the day. Right. Oh, that's a really good idea. Yeah. Gosh, I would benefit from that for sure. Okay. Another question around rituals, which you, you talked a little bit about kind of burning the love notes. Do you have any other suggestions for people or maybe some of your clients have done different rituals, but, um, rituals around ending a relationship?

Allowing yourself to let go to process that, all that kind of stuff. Yes, there are. So many options of things to do at the end of a relationship. I think that it can be easy when there is some kind of offense around the ending of a relationship. If it was like explosive at the end or like, I never wanna see that person again.

That anger can be a really. Accessible emotion, and so wanting to just cut ties and never think about them again, never like I'm moving on. Mm-hmm. I encourage people to Yes, of course. Feel those feelings. And also when you have. The capacity to think about what did you learn in that relationship and what would you like to have going forward that was either in that relationship or different.

And so of course, like journaling is really helpful for that, especially immediately after because you have a little bit less of a filter, um, and you're a little closer to the experience. You don't have to do anything with it, but just to like get it out or writing down, you know, what you learned, what you wanna keep and what you wanna leave.

I think especially around divorce, it can be really tricky when you are splitting households. There's a lot of physical things to split and so I do encourage people when they're moving, especially if they have. Pictures, if they have gifts, if they have anything that is connected to the relationship that they don't wanna throw away or they don't know what to do with, to put it in a box and label it.

Anything related to the relationship that while you're unpacking in your new place is gonna, would, would trigger something. So put all of the relationship stuff in one box and you don't have to do anything with it until you feel ready. Yeah. Yeah. And you're not surprised that way. It's like contained too.

It's like, okay, it's contained, but it's not so reactive where you might, it might be therapeutic and healing to go through that at a later time. Yeah. Okay. And you, maybe you never will. True write, that box might never be opened and that's fine, but you are. It's pretty overwhelming and there's so many decisions and so many moving pieces, and so I think taking the pressure off, having to make a decision about all of your, all of the things tied to your relationship, just giving yourself some time and space, and then also as people can afford it, having different experiences on significant dates and holidays and birthdays, because especially the first year, it's gonna be.

Be pretty obvious that you're in a different place, but giving yourself an alternate experience on that day or for that birthday and like switching it up so that you are giving yourself a new set of memories specific to a date or a holiday or a milestone. I love that. I'm also thinking about. When you talked about all these different pieces that you have to like, untangle kind of, I don't know if you use that word, but mm-hmm.

The word that came to my mind, I love to do things with strings and you can get at, um, any craft store. You can get big sets of just like random strings. And I, I feel like that could be an interesting exercise of like creating a web maybe of the different emotions that come up, the, the pieces of the relationship that you're holding onto, the pieces that you're needing to let go of, you know, the areas where you still feel intertwined.

I could just see this kind of like creative process around that using different strings. I don't know. I love that idea because it is an untangling. Yeah. Awesome. Well, this conversation has been so illuminating. Very interesting. Very helpful. Super, super good advice and I'm, I'm losing the word that I'm thinking of.

I keep saying words that I'm like hoping we get there, but it's, it's been very helpful. So we really appreciate you coming on Madison, and if you are part of the Patreon, you can stick around and we're gonna keep the conversation going. Woo hoo. Yes. All right. Goodbye all. Bye everyone. Alright, Regina fam, we hope that you enjoyed today's episode with Madison.

We would love to hear from you what helped you get through a breakup. Madison has just so many beautiful examples of finding and creating community after such a big transition, so we really appreciate her coming on and sharing about better half to whole. If you want more resources, you can check out her website better, half to whole.com linked in the show notes.

We did continue our conversation with her so you can check that out. On the Patreon, she shared with us a story about a really incredible ceremony that she did for her 30th birthday after her divorce, so really recommend. Listening to that, you can get it on the Patreon for $3, or if you have a monthly membership, then you will just be able to listen to that.

Even if you can't financially support us, though, we would still love to see you over on the Patreon and that way you'll get updates when there's new episodes and new bonus content and more conversations with us. So joining us over there is just a really. Really amazing way to support us and we really appreciate seeing you all over there.

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