Welcome to Ritual Sisters, the podcast where your hosts and fellow travelers, Michelle and Kelly, explore the ways that ritual can help you feel better through the ups and downs of life. So let's take a deep breath and start this journey together.

All right. Ritual fam, welcome to the podcast. Today we are here with Cass Howlet, who has been with the rainbow circles in Fort Collins for. The past year and a half, they are an LPCC or licensed professional counselor candidate. If you're into knowing what that means, um, they're also a registered dance movement therapist.

So before we get started, we wanted to frame this episode a little bit since gender and sexuality is such a wide topic. So we today are really focusing in on gender identity exploration, whether you're wanting tips to explore your own gender identity or supporting trans individuals and their gender identity journey.

But first, I think it's really important to discuss the lens through which we're viewing this conversation. So I'm just gonna straight up read this quote from the American Psychological Association that explains gender affirming care. So they say on their website, consistent with the American Psychological Association's mission to promote the advancement, communication, and application of psychological science and knowledge to benefit society and improve lives.

This policy statement affirms APAs support for unobstructed access to healthcare and evidence-based clinical care for transgender. Gender diverse and non-binary children, adolescents and adults, and for increased public accessibility to timely and accurate information. Founded in clinical and psychological science.

Evidence-based clinical care, including gender affirming care, should be non-corrosive, adaptive to and centered on the needs of the individual receiving care. Rooted in psychological and clinical science, including recognition of gender diversity as a part of normal human diversity, as well as recognition of limits in the current state of scientific knowledge.

So I know that's a lot, but basically what we're trying to say is we're not here to debate if or why gender identities exist. We're just starting right off the bat with the assumption that gender diversity is part of human diversity. That gender affirming care is the standard of care for all individuals.

So with that being said, welcome Cas. Yes. We are so excited to have you here. Hi. Thanks for having me here. I'm excited as well. Yay. Aw, it's so good to have you here and Michelle, and I just cannot wait to get to know you more and. Yeah, explore this topic further. Mm-hmm. We love to start all of our podcast episodes with just a little bit of, tell us a bit about yourself, and we also want to know why this topic feels meaningful to you.

Yeah. Okay. I think it's helpful if I share some of my identities a little bit just to kind of get into it. And then maybe like the fun stuff about myself too. Yeah, yeah. So I'm non-binary myself, like gender queer, gender expansive in that way. And there's so many different like identities and categories within that.

So I'll keep it broad. For now, I also just identify as pansexual, polyamorous, queer in general. Uh, very proud to call myself fat. I'm also in a white body, um, that feels important to say. So I'm a somatic therapist that specializes in dance movement therapy as well, and I came to Colorado from the Pacific Northwest, so.

Been really enjoying the rain recently. It feels very homey. Yeah. But I also love it here too. The mountains are beautiful. Uh, so where I work is we're specifically working with the LGBTQIA plus community and like queer folks, a lot of overlap with neurodivergent folks as well, and based through the book, like Neuro Queerer, heresies, like that overlap between being gender queer and also neurodivergent, like very high overlap.

Mm. I feel very passionate about this topic because this is the work that I do. This is why I went to school and decided to do the kind of therapy I wanna do, and now I get to work exclusively in this population and I'm also part of this population. And I think it's important to keep talking about it, uh, because.

This is not going away. This has been around for centuries, like we're calling it gender affirming and gender queer, gender expansive, all these things. But like the, I, the reality is that gender expansiveness has existed throughout centuries in multiple different cultures. Mm-hmm. We're just calling it something different and looking at it in a different way.

From our Western lens in like us, uh, western white US psychology. So how does it feel for you to be working with the communities that you're a part of? Yeah, I mean, it can be a, a little, because I'm part of the community, I'm facing a lot of the same stuff myself. So to sit in my seat as a therapist and be able to be, we call it like the regulated nervous system in the room while someone's talking about something that I'm currently going through.

Is a challenge, but it also like, that's why we go to school and, and do our own practices and, and rituals at home, uh, so that we can like do that and show up for people. And then on the other side of that, it's also just really fun. Like I can kind of tell the difference when I'm working with someone who's maybe not of those identities, which is not saying anything negative, it's just different.

But I feel really like lucky in that way. So it's like a challenge. But also, um, very fulfilling too. Oh my goodness, Cass. Yeah. You are such a gift to the community and being able to Yes. Sit with your clients and really understand what they're going through. Um, that's powerful. Thank you. And I'm sure they appreciate that a lot.

Alright, so one question that we love to ask people, and you already mentioned rituals, so I'm excited to hear your answer. What is your relationship to ritual? Yeah, so another part of my identity, I guess, is I grew up Mormon. Oh, fascinating. Yeah. It, uh, has its own rituals and ceremonies mm-hmm. As most religions do.

Yeah. Um, those aren't the exact words that they use necessarily, but. Because of that and because of my queerness, I have not stayed in that religion. So as I turned 18, I decided to leave. So I think I rejected like really hard pendulum swing the opposite way to like no rituals, no ceremonies, no spirituality.

'cause it felt like a way for me to. Try to figure out who I was and like, you know, leave some of that behind. For me personally, this is not for everyone. It was not a supportive environment for my queer identity and exploring gender, and so that was my solution to it. Two, I really leaned hard into dance, hence becoming a dance movement therapist, which has its own rituals and ceremonies like rehearsals and classes and performances and things like that.

Um, even like the warmups you do in your class usually tend to stay the same with some differences. So while shout out to the dancers, yeah, shout out. Shout out. You know what I'm talking about. Yeah, so I think in one way I was leaving some rituals and ceremonies very intentionally while like falling into some other ones that really helped me figure out who I was.

Even though like dance can be kind of nebulous and all over the place for exploration, it did give me an opportunity to really be in my body in ways I wasn't before, but also figure out who I was and like you kind of put on different roles. Uh, you can kind of play different people if you really want to.

It's all about performance, which is what gender also can be. That's such a great point. Yeah. And then going to school for therapy, we learned a lot more about ritual and ceremony, so now I would say it's like even more of a intentional lens that I have. And dance movement therapy itself really takes from like centuries of different cultures dances.

We learned a lot about African dance and the whole point of involving dance in their rituals and ceremonies is for healing and transformation. So it was really interesting to get to, like, reclaim it and like find a different purpose for ritual and ceremony in that way. Um, so now I get to use it in my work, uh, which is very exciting to me to be able to have it and not have it feel.

Like so linked to things that were harmful and now it's more healing and helpful. Yeah. There is such a difference between ritual that is kind of put on you. Mm-hmm. And not to say that, yes, that's always a bad thing. Mm-hmm. But that it's just a different feeling of, I have to do this because. My community is telling me I have to versus I'm, I'm finding my own rituals.

Mm-hmm. I'm exploring what just speaks to me. Yeah. Yeah. And that autonomy has been one of the biggest things that I have been reclaiming ever since leaving. And I don't have to get too into like religious trauma type stuff, but that is a piece when people leave, uh, to be able to reclaim like what is your choice and what.

What can you be like, have autonomy around which for me, yes. Rituals for sure. I love how you described your journey and I know for listeners so many people will resonate with this and, and I'm even curious for those listening, if they are still doing. Ritual and ceremony that maybe they, they aren't invested in or there's some misalignment.

Mm-hmm. So thank you for bringing this up cast, because I think it's worth exploring for all of us, what rituals, ceremonies are we born into and which ones are we choosing? 'cause they feel an alignment and they feel connected to our heart. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I mean, it's important that we get choice. Uh, I'm very firm believer in that.

Yeah. Especially coming from. A history of not feeling like I had a lot of choice. So sexuality and gender isn't a choice, but like you do get to choose what you do about it and how you express it. So I think that's another piece of this, of getting to be more intentional and choiceful about how you get to explore these things and make it your own.

Like no one can do that for you. Yeah. Beautiful. I'm also curious, really quick before we do our next question, I know there's different parts of the Pacific Northwest and there are some areas that are, you know, more rural and maybe more, um, I don't know, less open minded, but then I think we oftentimes associate the Pacific Northwest as like a really affirming place mm-hmm.

For L-G-B-T-Q-I-A people. So I'm wondering how that, you know, came into play for you with. Being Mormon, but living in the p and w and yeah. How did that all pan out for you? Yeah, no, I appreciate that question. Um, 'cause you're right, like I would say. The way I see it, and maybe other people who grew up there too mm-hmm.

Is there's like western, uh, Washington, which is where I'm from, and then eastern Washington, which is a little more rural, maybe more conservative, um, depending on the place. Uh, but because Western Washington is like Seattle and Bellingham and Bellevue and all these places like. I found a little more exposure maybe to getting to see queerness and like, not in negative ways, which growing up the way I did was a little confusing.

Yeah. Mm-hmm. Um, like my mom who's still Mormon and really like, that's special for her and I can. I see that for her. She used to take me to gay clubs in Seattle when I was in high school to go see concerts and stuff. So I got like to have this lens while I was also still in a community that wasn't really supportive of it.

So I think in that way I had these like little pieces throughout my life of seeing like the gender queerness or like transness celebrated and like actual spaces for it. And then also. Mormonism, I would say is very patriarchal. But because of that, I, like they said, all the women or afab people are usually together.

AAB men are usually together. So it's interesting because the split is to like hold some power, especially for patriarchal positions of power in that culture or in that religion. But because of that, I grew up around all these really strong, amazing women. Um, so I got to see gender. In like a different light than I think I was supposed to.

And maybe that's also the neurodivergence of seeing patterns and seeing things in a different way. Mm-hmm. Um, so I think that also helped too. 'cause I am reflecting on a lot of my, uh, like female family members who are very like queer in the way that they do their gender. Um, that also grew up Mormon and were in this religion.

But like don't fit the traditional things that like we were quote unquote supposed to do. So I think I got all these like bits and pieces throughout my life, but I think living more western Washington really helped, I guess, kind of shield me from the more overt, overt transphobia and homophobia I could have seen.

But you know, like it's still covert as well, and subtle. So I still got some of those internalized messages, but. Yeah, that's it. Yeah. I'm so glad you asked that question, Michelle. Yeah, I'm really, I wouldn't have even thought of that. So that was such a great question, which is interesting. 'cause yeah, we think about identity oftentimes as like being so like black and white, you know?

Mm-hmm. But just like hearing how your story has like so many different layers to it that mm-hmm. That's good for. All of us to hear. No. Yes. And that resonates what I talked about with my therapist recently, but the phrase I'm going to is I need to allow myself to be in the gray. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Um, so Cass, we know that you are a therapist, Michelle, and I also would love just to know what season of life are you in, if there's Yeah.

Certain hobbies, interests, or how are you spending your time outside of being a therapist? I really enjoyed this question because, uh, since graduating from my undergrad about a year ago. Now I'm in this transition of figuring out how do I want my career to look like? What do I want my life to look like now that school is not the main focus, mm-hmm.

Of my life anymore. So the way I'm looking at it is like. Uh, I'm feeling into being more disruptive and more stubborn, like reclaiming stubborn. It's like it's okay for me to be that. Yeah. Snaps together, let's go. Um, and also being complex and contradictory in my own ways 'cause. Like self-exploration I think is an ongoing thing.

So like I'm shedding old things as I'm claiming new things, and sometimes they butt heads and sometimes they don't. But that's the kind of era I think I'm in right now. And then along with that also like in, in queer ways, trying to figure out like what does my future look like in terms of community? Uh, like family that's maybe non-traditional, especially since leaving Mormonism.

The whole life that I was supposed to have is not the life that I'm choosing. So now what do you do? When that script isn't there anymore, you kind of like pick and choose what feels right. So also kind of looking to the future in that way and figuring out like, what do I want to do? Who do I want in my life?

Who am I putting energy towards these days? And then outside of that, or maybe in conjunction with that. I'm trying to dance. I try to take a dance class at least once a week working on different art projects, like learning new things too. I'm learning how to make beaded earrings much like your earrings.

Oh, okay. Made me posted. I love my beaded earrings. Will do. Me too. I'm like, oh, maybe I can just make them myself. Yeah. That's incredible. Yeah. Um, I also have a cat, so I love like just. Hanging out, playing with my cat too. Um, and trying to get out into nature more too, especially as it's warming up and um, you can actually go to like the creek and, and swim and things like that.

So yeah, that's mostly, mostly it. I think we have a lot of really good stuff going on and really, yeah, heart centered. Aw, thank you. Love it.

I love earlier that you brought up how. Gen. The concept of gender diversity and gender affirming care is like new to us, but just. In a wider context. It exist forever. Forever. Centuries. Yeah. Century millennia, forever. I mean, I don't, we don't know. Yeah. Um, so how do you feel like society and culture really impacts how people think about their gender?

I know that's a huge question. Mm-hmm. So, yeah. I'll try my best just to answer like in the moment what comes up. Mm-hmm. Yeah. But yeah, I guess, um, maybe I'll just speak more to like the US 'cause that's the culture I know the most. Mm-hmm. Um, but yeah, like, as we can tell there, without getting too into it, like there are laws that, you know, get to decide or not decide how people get to explore or not explore their gender.

So in that way, we do have some codification and also like we talked about with like. Where you live, uh, in the US as well. Like it really depends on the culture you're growing up into, like in these more mi microcultures as well. And like, do you have access to spaces where you get to see queerness and transness or like how is it talked about in your family?

How is it talked about? Um, in the city you live in? What do you see on the news? What media are you consuming around it? Like does your library have the books that you need to understand and look into that? Are you allowed to access that when you're on the internet? What is your social media feed like?

I'm just thinking of all these things that we. Consume and like our input into our own bodies, our own systems. And that really can determine like how we even think about the idea that we can question it. Um, 'cause that's the thing is it really starts with a question, you know? So if you even get to ask that question, that can change so much for somebody.

And then also, of course, the representation. Yeah, it, well, it reminds me of when we were talking to Susan and John in our episode on spirituality. We talked about the idea of using discomfort and uncertainty as a point to like start questioning like, what, yes, what's coming up for me? And yeah, I think that probably.

Our society views that as like, if I'm uncomfortable, it's bad. Mm-hmm. And I should not feel that way. And people shouldn't make me feel that way. Well, even this idea, and Cass, you're bringing up with the Mormonism of certainty. Mm-hmm. I think there's so many cultural lenses. In the United States that it's like you need to feel certain of these things.

Like we are certain of this versus, yeah. What Susan and John were saying of how do we lean into the unknown? Like how do we dance with the questions? Yeah. And, and welcome them. Because for so many people it's, you know, you don't ask that. Mm-hmm. There's a lot of shutting down the questions. Yeah. I think as therapists for all of it, I mean, that's one of my favorite parts of being a therapist, is we get to live out those questions with people.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. I mean, that makes me think too, like how, how urgent and fast and like Yeah. The certainty our culture needs mm-hmm. To just like keep, keep moving on, like, nothing's stopping stopping this train, so to speak, but it's like. The questions and the pausing and like sitting with discomfort and unknown, that requires slowing down and pausing and getting to sit with and suss out.

Like what are the answers? Are there even answers to this question? And, and, and this is what really bugs me about censoring books in general. 'cause I'm like, this is how some people get to explore their questions. Mm-hmm. Is through literature and through story. Yeah, like even that being at such a young age to have access to books like that too.

Mm-hmm. Transformational. Kids are so receptive and so able to learn new things and explore a lot, and they're just naturally curious. Like all people are curious. Mm-hmm. But kids are asking questions all the time. I was definitely that kid that like a million questions a minute is like, it felt like questions are firing.

Yeah, exactly. But you know, it just. Having access to books like that, even when I was a kid, would've been a huge difference in, in figuring out any of this. Like I didn't even know you could question gender or sexuality until I was a lot older, like teens into early twenties. And for some people it takes a lot longer to be able to get to that point too.

So. Yeah, that representation is really important and kids also are like not subject to the, the cultural norms of like hustle culture and like capitalism and moving quickly and all of these things. So they have a little more space and time to play and that's. Part of this too is like, it's also about being able to play and we don't get that a lot as adults.

And so yeah, therapy is a great space to make room for that. Also, just like trying to find that throughout your life too, which I feel like rituals do give that opportunity too. Like intentional play, intentional exploring, intentional being with the unknown. Oh, it's so true. Even this morning, Michelle and I, 'cause sometimes we'll do our meetings, precasts, you know, just in front of our screens and today Michelle was like.

Let's ride our bikes and we like went to this little bubbling stream and just had a moment and it was so playful and yes. Thank you Cass. That was, gosh, that really resonated how you just described that. Oh, that's so nice that you both thought that moment today. It was so fun. And I'm like, I wanna bike ride more.

Yes. Well, okay, so our kind of our next question, I think it'll flow. Fabulously. What is the value of exploring gender identity for both cis and trans individuals? Yeah, so framing it as both like cis and trans people getting to explore. I really appreciate that. 'cause that's it. Gender exploration should be for everybody getting to explore.

As a cis person, you get to understand yourself more. Like that itself has value, getting to know who you are. Mm-hmm. Um, and getting to question these things, especially things that were prescribed in, in the gender roles in our culture of men and women having to show up in certain ways in their relationships at work, uh, with family, with friends, et cetera, like.

Some of that stuff is not comfortable and No, no, it can be hard. Yeah. And some people might feel like I, this is just life. I have no choice and I don't get to do anything different. But that is not true. And even if we feel like we don't have choice, we still get to have choice in getting to explore and understand ourselves better.

So even getting to have that process is valuable. Whether or not like a CIS person's exploring gender and decides, Nope, I'm still cis. Or someone who was cis and decides like, Nope, this never fit, this was not right for me. And they get to choose something that actually does fit right. That gives opportunity to be someone's authentic self to get to practice autonomy and choice, and that that does have value because the things we hold on and the things we don't wanna let go of continue for generations and like on the micro and macro levels of our own individual lives, but also legally and culturally, it reinforces things that we maybe don't need to be doing anymore.

And even like getting to explore gender in little ways, like throughout different, um, revolutions throughout their cultures. Yeah. Like women get to vote now, for example. You know, like there's all these things that we get to like really change. Also, by getting to do stuff like this too, we can say one prescribed version of gender actually doesn't help because you're forgetting about all these other intersections, like socioeconomic status, sexuality, language.

Things like that where one version of how gender should be is not feasible. It's not accessible for everybody. It doesn't make sense in that way. Mm-hmm. So like. This is a little bit of a reach, but I think it will hopefully make sense of when you get to explore your gender and explore yourself in these ways.

You're a disruptor. You get to disrupt the systems and like that sends echoes. Like if we start individual that influences the people around you, and then the culture and legal and all this other stuff like it. It sends waves out into how the rest of us get to be. Ooh. It sends echoes, it sends waves. Yes.

Yeah. I think that we do, like people do innately crave. Some level of exploration in that we, in our society, we have these little like pockets of ways where it's, you know, like Halloween people, a, a lot of people do drag or cross dress on Halloween. Yeah. And like Yeah. Or even toward of fat, like a local, the local Fort Collins holiday.

Oh yeah. Oh, you see that a lot. Yeah. I think it's just like this natural craving that people do have. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Just like creating more spaces for people to do that, how they want to, instead of like, I can only do this on this specific day. Yes. Yeah. That actually just reminded me, uh, another lore about myself is I grew up in an in-home daycare, like that's what my mom did for years.

Oh. So I grew up Interesting. Like getting to see all these kids play with different toys and like mm-hmm. Seeing like these little boys playing with dolls was the sweetest thing ever. But like that's another piece of like, if we wanna get really into like the things that are not working gender wise for our society, like things that are toxic about ma masculinity that don't serve anybody.

Like, I got to see these little kids practice like nurturing and caring, like things, skills that are good to have regardless of what your life looks like later. And that started at a very young age. And same like on the, I guess the opposite side and keeping it binary a little intentionally, but like seeing girls getting to play with, you know, quote unquote traditional boy toys too, and like getting to figure out, oh, like I actually like building, or like, I really like these more scientificy kind of things.

Getting even that option to figure out, it's not even just about gender at that point, but like what do you want out of your life as you're, as you're getting older and growing and, uh, what fields are gonna make you feel like you. Are valuable and bring you like a sense of fulfillment later on too. Like it's not just funneling into one, one specific view of, of what your life should look like.

It, you get a lot more options that way. Mm. Yeah. It totally, it blows the lid off completely. Yeah. Mm. Yeah. And there's all that research about, you know, how our gender identity impacts our experience in the classroom too. Mm-hmm. I just remember learning in psychology about how mm-hmm. Girls will do worse on math.

Tests when they're like reminded that they're girls or something. Like, I'm really going off the cuff on this, but, but, but you can see, yeah, you can see how that would happen. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Like that mindset piece. Mm-hmm. Those, yeah. The deeper held beliefs. Yeah. Yeah. Like this closing off and restricting of parts of yourself because.

It doesn't match the performance you're supposed to be a part of. And so that's very interesting. Like even that mindset of like, well, girls aren't good at math, so I'm not gonna be good at this test. Like That's wild. Yeah. Okay, so the next question is, can we break down a little bit gender dysphoria versus gender euphoria and how that can show up in people's lives?

Yeah, I'll try to do my best. I think I look at it as like there's the DSM version of gender dysphoria and more of the prescriptive way that we're trained to look at it. Mm-hmm. Um, and so in that way it is showing at least that there's proof. From a, it's in a book, it's codified, you know, way of looking at things.

Mm-hmm. That this does exist. Like people need to be able to explore their gender because there are actual symptoms and like things that really impact somebody's just like general quality of life. And as we know statistically, this population has like higher suicide rates and also higher violence like from other people rates.

That's not the right way to phrase it. Anyways, all of that to say is like, it's cool to have a more solidified version to go to. Um, so that would describe, I don't feel good in my body, in my current way of the gender that I've been told that I have. And of course, there's difference between sex and gender.

Uh, so here part of it is asking to be able to explore like the performance of gender, like what genders you. You want to try on? 'cause again, there's like a plethora of options out there. Mm-hmm. But also addresses like the biological side too, and like the need for gender affirming care, like from medication, surgeries, et cetera.

That would also help someone feel more affirmed in their body and like be able to look at their body and also feel like, no, this is, this is exactly who I am. This is who I've been wanting to be this whole time. And then also the other side of this too is that not every trans person experiences gender dysphoria.

And that's to say like, because everybody's different. Like we all show up differently in how we look at our gender. Uh, I guess I can use myself as an example too. There are certain gender affirming things I want to pursue that would, uh, like a gender dysphoria diagnosis could help me have access to. But I also feel fulfilled in a lot of other ways to get, to keep exploring and get to keep trying on different things.

So in that way. Like some more solidifying permanent changes could be helpful, but also I like having the option to be really expansive and like, choose lots of different options as like I change and, and get older and more terms and more ideas come out here because that's another piece. The more people are exploring, the more terms we get, the more representations.

Anyways, that's like a whole long piece, uh, to go on. Um, so then, yeah, the, the other end of that spectrum, I suppose, is gender euphoria. So ideally if, uh, someone is experiencing gender dysphoria and gets access to spaces to explore and also, um, gender affirming care in various ways. They ideally can hit gender euphoria, which is maybe an example looking in the mirror and finally seeing like who you really are after like all these years, or like today, the clothing I picked was very intentional and it makes me feel very gender queer in the ways that I wanna feel gender queer, which helps me like show up in my life.

I can take up more space and be a little more. Uh, confident, I guess in like how I am showing up in relationships with other people. I'm not like overthinking the whole time what I look like and how others are perceiving me. I actually get to be like, present and feel authentic in the moment. Um, and also gender euphoria is associated with a lot of joy too.

Like it's. It's finally getting to feel aligned in yourself. And I'll also say not every trans person experiences gender euphoria either. So there's like a lot of spectrum ness. It's very floaty and nebulous in that way, but we also have tried to codify it and make it a little more solid too. I think that's a really good.

Reminder for people and yeah, that there's a difference between the lived experience and what might happen in somebody's life on a day-to-day basis versus like, what the codified term. Yeah, and, and how it's like neither of those is like better, worse than the other is just. They, they serve, they have different purposes and different meanings.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. That's really good to keep in mind. Yeah. And just because in our culture, or like western psychology has gender dysphorias, like a written term does not mean that. That does not exist in other cultures and other times like we just happen to put some words to it and put it in a book that we get training to use and talk about.

All right, so we're getting into what our ritual family listeners can take out of today. Mm-hmm. And incorporate into their lives. So especially since you work so much with the L-G-B-T-Q-I-A population, what resources and ideas have you used to help people explore their gender identity? I kind of wrote out a little list.

I wanna share just like some different options. Okay. I love it. Oh, this is such a, such a treat. Cool. Going shopping, even just going thrifting, like trying things on, you don't have to buy them. But getting to practice that. What is it like to put on these clothes? How does it actually feel? How do I look?

How do I feel when I look at myself? Like getting to. Touching and maybe not have to commit to things, but you can, if you want, is a great option. That could also include makeup that people use, whether that's to look more feminine or more masculine or somewhere in the middle, like a little more androgynous, um, or gender neutral.

You can also play with your hair and your accessories. I dye my hair different colors all the time just to try to play with. Different, um, options and even the practice. I dye my own hair and sometimes cut my own hair. That's good for, for use, Cass. I'm impressed. Thanks. It's a hit or miss, I'll say. Um, but I like to do that 'cause it's a moment I get to be with myself and like, uh, really take this intentional care of picking out the color I wanna use.

And like, you have to, if you're gonna bleach your hair or anything, you have to be very careful and safe with yourself. So it's like. While I get to do this fun expressive thing, I'm also practicing like being gentle and caring for myself too. What a sacred ritual. Yeah. I've been doing that for quite a few years.

I'm realizing now. Yeah. I think that is a ritual that I have. Yeah. Yeah. So like those are some options to kind of hit more of the external presentation of gender. Also like watching shows or books or listening to podcasts, watching movies that center queer and trans people. That could be like a weekly read or listen or watch or monthly or whatever you want it to be.

Um, especially for some people. That might be the only access that they really have to queerness. Very true. When they're not gonna get judged or harmed. Um, do you have any favorites, like shows, movies, podcasts, like any go-tos for listeners? Yeah, I'll just say the one off the top of my head 'cause there's so many, but I just finished watching sort of, that's on HBO Max.

Oh, okay. I'm gonna watch that. Love that show. And it's not just about gender, which I appreciate too, but that is a big piece of it. But there are lots of like. Uh, trans and queer characters in that show, but it's also about like coming into an adult, into adulthood and loss and grief and all these different things.

And it's also really funny too, the main character uses they them pronouns. So like even that representation can be hard to find at times, but just seeing like how this one version of being non-binary shows up in media. Very helpful, very transformational. Mm-hmm. Um, so that's one of my favorite shows, I would say.

Yeah. Yeah. And I've been looking for a new show, so I'm like, thank you, KA for the listeners,

I hope you enjoy it as much as I do. Yes. Yeah. Let's see. Uh, also going to like queer forward spaces. I mean, it's June as of recording this right now. So it is Pride month officially. Woohoo. Yeah. There's so many like fun events throughout the whole month. Um, but I know even Northern Colorado Pride and NOCO Pride is in August.

So like pride also extends like all year if you really wanted to, but. Going to like bars or, you know, like that's a pretty common one. But also like book clubs that are more queer specific. Um, or going to drag shows, drag brunches, like things like this where you get to be in queer spaces, whether or not you're showing up in your authentic presentation shouldn't have to matter.

Like, you can still show up in these spaces and like be in community with other people, um, and get to see, and like, if you wanna play with your own gender in those spaces, like that's usually very welcome. Um, so, mm-hmm. I guess I'm getting at like the, the practice and intentionality that comes with ritual, but Al like applying that to gender exploration, journaling about your gender.

People are now writing books that have prompts that can lead people through exploring their gender. Making art about your gender, and this could be like the mediums of canvas and paint or you could draw. I also like have kind of explored my gender through dance. Even like you can make a gender dance and explore Ooh, like what movements feel.

More masculine or more feminine or more neutral like and it doesn't have to just be that either. Like it could be such a range. 'cause dance is a fun place to play and get to like move in ways we don't normally get to move in our lives. So like if your gender could be whatever, how would you move in that way?

Um, so that's something that I have really appreciated. 'cause sometimes it's even hard to have the words to express what it is you're feeling so true. Yes. Yeah. What a fun prompt. Yeah. And I don't, do you know Bellas. I don't think so. Okay. This is, it's okay. I can like, wait, say it. Say it again. It's a ballet.

Ballet, so it's like a gender inclusive ballet. Oh. And there are, I think they have some videos on YouTube. Mm-hmm. And so like some of the things that they'll do is like. Have you move across a room as like, do this, like ballet move as more like masculine or more feminine. So I, I can definitely link that, but Oh, please do yourself.

Yeah. That's so cool. Yeah, I know. I want somebody to start a Bellas here. That would be awesome. I love that. Oh my gosh. We'd all go. Yeah, I'm like, don't give me too many ideas.

Um, oh, that's so cool. But yeah, like stuff like that. 'cause why, why not play around with like the medium of dance? You don't have to commit to anything. It's, it's literally about playing and exploring and trying things on. Oh, that reminds me, I did a friend of mine who's like really in the burlesque world.

They were really passionate about, um, in their burlesque classes, getting to practice. 'cause you kind of create a character, right? Which includes gender at times. So we did get to play around with character building in the medium of like dance and burlesque, but also playing around with what if your persona is a little more masculine and what if it's a little more feminine and getting options for that.

If you're using it like, like, I mean that's what drag is, right? Getting to explore gender in, in dance and performance. So there's lots of different options if doing it on your own feels intimidating, like you can go into spaces and, and practice that too. Yes, these ideas are phenomenal. Thanks. Yeah. Um, so we wanted to ask one more question around this ritual section, and.

We were wondering from your perspective, how you create inclusive spaces, like what rituals help create inclusive spaces, and this can be both at work with the rainbow circles, but it could also be in your personal life. Yeah. Kind of like connecting back to the last prompt too. I feel like therapy itself is about container and ritual, so like mm-hmm.

Getting to show up in my own therapy is something that helps in my life. My, uh, therapist is also non-binary and queer in, in their own way, so I get that space. I go every other week, but you know, like you could have that weekly or more or less to get to explore gender in that way. Let's see, at work, yeah, we have a lot of like queer art on the walls.

I feel like that kind of gives a little sense of mm-hmm. Oh, I'm walking into a space, hopefully that feels safe and inclusive for me. We even have like those window films on our doors that are rainbow colored just to Oh, that's so awesome. It's a little subtle, but like, you know, you get the message colors.

Yeah. So, you know, when you walk down the hall, like, oh, it's, it's, uh, we, I see the rainbow so I know where to go. Um, um, and we even have community resources. Like we have a community closet, uh, where people donate clothes and people also can take clothes. So I encourage my clients like. Hey, if you're exploring gender right now and like your presentation, you can go in the closet.

We can even spend a session if you wanna try on different clothing and see how things feel. You can take stuff home and bring it back. Um, so that's another way that I try to incorporate it a bit. Um, and again, because I'm a dance movement therapist, like I get to dance with my clients and make art with them.

So we get to explore gender, like through those mediums as well. So it doesn't have to just be like verbalizing or talking about things and even like. Thinking about how taking medications or like engaging in, in gender affirming care in that way also could be very intentional ritual through out somebody's week or month or day, like depending on what it is they're using.

Even the ritual of like putting on a binder, for example, like that could be a ritual. Mm-hmm. And I will say too, like there is a piece about being like too aware of your body already and like how maybe more awareness could be a little triggering or maybe it could be helpful if you look at it from. Like a, I'm caring for my body.

This is an intentional caring for, it just really depends on like where the person is and like what they've been through already with, with their body and, and things like that. Yeah. And sometimes I, you know, talk to people when they have that discomfort with their body of trying to focus on a neutral body part as a way to connect to your body.

Mm-hmm. I think, you know, that is important. For people in general to feel, you know, connected to their body and not disconnected. But it can be very triggering. Yeah. Yeah. Actually another lens I hold is like the body liberation or body neutrality, like body positivity has, has its place. Mm-hmm. And sometimes it bypasses exactly these things of.

To be expected to feel good about our bodies a hundred percent of the time is not realistic and really sets us up for failure. But being able to look at your body neutrally, or even sometimes I'll do body scans for clients who feel open to it and it's not too triggering for them, and we end it with, can you give yourself or your body some kind of acknowledgement, which could be neutrality or positivity.

Um, but the neutral could just be like. A fact about your body and what it does. Um, so maybe it's like my respiratory system is on point. It is working, which I guess is a little more positive, but you know, like, well, yeah, like I'm breathing. Yeah. I'm breathing. I'm, I'm here. I'm existing. And that's neutral enough for now.

Yeah. Mm-hmm. Well, thank you so much. This was Yes, thank you. This is amazing. We really appreciate you coming here and sharing your wisdom and your personal story. It. Yeah, it's so special. Thank you. Yeah. Thank you so much for offering this space too. Like, uh, I really appreciate getting to talk about this.

Like, I feel very passionate about it. Clearly it's, it affects me personally, but also in my work as well. But like, especially how things are these days when it comes to like gender affirming, uh, safe spaces, like getting to come on a podcast like this and just be really open and honest about what I think and feel about this.

Is so important. And I will say too, like I'm not the be all, end all. I'm just like one queer person who happens to be here right now. Um, but yeah, I appreciate the both of you as well. Yeah. Thank you. Aw, thank you so much. Yeah. And for people that are in Northern Colorado, how can they access the rainbow circles?

Yeah, so you can come to our website, the rainbow circles.com. We have like options for donating to our mutual aid. If you know someone in need, you can also make requests. We also have, uh, our wait list is open right now. Okay. Just a little shout out. Mm-hmm. Um, and because it's Pride month, we're doing a lot of events, so we'll be, I'm trying to think of the next event.

Come to our website. The website will tell you everything you need to know. Um, but it's a good time if you really wanna be supporting the queer community. Uh, any funds we get from the fundraising we're doing right now and the events we're holding all goes towards, uh, offering free therapy for people in need.

Um, 'cause again, this. This population in particular, the accessing care can be really, really challenging both financially and for a lot of other reasons as well. And we also have, uh, an Instagram as well that you can follow us on. And we'll also post events and like things we're, we're up to, I believe we're just at the rainbow circles on Instagram as well.

Amazing. Well, thank, thank you. Yes, thank you so much, Cass. Yeah, you're welcome. Thank you. Alright, well, wherever you're at Ritual fam, have a magical time. Goodbye. Yes, bye. Alright, ritual fam, what a wonderful conversation with Cass. We just so appreciate them coming on and being really open and vulnerable with us, but also sharing some amazing and super helpful resources.

We know that this is a really big topic and some people might not be super familiar with gender identity theory, all that kind of stuff. So we will definitely be linking resources in the show notes if you do wanna learn more. And of course we'll share some on our Instagram. You know it at Ritual Sisters pod.

We'd love to see you over there. We also did have an extended conversation with Cass after this, well, we actually took a break and cast showed us some. Uh, what is it? Dance therapy moves. Uh, that was pretty fun. So we got a little refresh and then we came back and we just did some fun silly questions afterwards, which you guessed it gonna be launched on our Patreon, and can you believe it?

It is coming out in only one month, so September 7th. We will be releasing our Patreon if you wanna get ahead of it. It's a separate app, so you can go to your app store and download the Patreon app and wait patiently over there. And then we're actually gonna be taking a little bit of a break in September.

Uh, one is because I am going on vacation. I do deserve it after all this hard work. But we also know it's gonna be a lot to drop the Patreon. There's gonna be a lot of bonus content over there, so we wanna give that a little bit of space to breathe. Okay, just breathe, take it all in. And there's going to be a bonus, bonus content for every episode that we have dropped so far.

So there's gonna be a lot of bonus content for you to digest. Take it all in, have some fun. There's gonna be some fun questions and conversations over there. So that's gonna be the month of September and then we're gonna come back all nice and fresh, ready to go in October for some really fascinating conversation.

Alright, well we are excited to hang out with you over on the Patreon and. As always, we would love to hear from you. If you have any questions for us, happy to answer 'em. And if you have any fun ways of exploring gender identity, that would be really interesting for us to learn about. As always, if you would like to.

Reach us. You can find us at the Instagram I mentioned before. Ritual Sisters Pod, or on our website, ritual sisters pod.com. Alright, well. Have a wonderful day. Goodbye

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